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Goodbye Sweden. (pg. 13)
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| Domesticated |
| quote: | Originally posted by Lira
Actually, I went through several cringe-sessions when I read their works... are you really going to make me go look the excerpts up on their books? :p |
Yes, I remember in the thread about Hitchens' death, you and I agreed that in some cases we could have argued better than Dawkins. However, my problem with those arguments wasn't assumptions or idiocy, it was his habit of making simple arguments unnecessarily complex. At times, he tries to blind his opponents with technical science rather than with reason. That doesn't make his arguments any well less structured or sound, though.
| quote: | Originally posted by Moral Hazard
Is that so... they don't make any incorrect assumptions? They are entirely correct on their understanding of every belief from every religion? Sorry, but that's just pure folly and I think you're showing a confirmation bias here. |
No, your original post didn't say anything about incorrect assumptions.
| quote: | Originally posted by Moral Hazard
Simple answer... the more each side in the issue talks the more they deminish their own credibility by making unreasonable arguments based less on the other's position than on their belief of what the other's position is. |
That statement would indicate to me a more general misunderstanding of their opponents, which I disagreed with. I'm sure they do make some small, incorrect assumptions. Nonetheless, their own positions aren't compromised by that.
For example, if an atheist was to hypothetically misunderstand, and assume that all Christians believe the word of the Bible should be taken literally, it doesn't change the main argument - that belief in god is a childish notion, and that religion itself is a waste of time. The small details are unimportant. That's one thing Dawkins stresses in The God Delusion; it doesn't matter which religion is being discussed, the beliefs and ideologies are all as ridiculous as one another. |
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| Znack |
| quote: | Originally posted by Moral Hazard
it seems to me that; by and large, most people who have claim to have issues with Islam really have issues with particular sects thereof and/or ethno-cultural practices of various Arabic peoples as opposed to the religion itself. In truth, I would suggest that most people who express strong views on Islam actually know very little about it. I have no problem with objections to certain cultural practices or acts done by / positions held by individuals; however, let's identify and challenge them properly, as opposed to making idiotic statements like "all muslims are fundimentally oppoesed to all of our values" (as if ALL muslims agree on anything shot of the existance of God and ALL of "us" hold to the same values). |
I have huge problems with passages of the Quran. That is Islam itself. I don't care that many, many Muslims don't carry out the instructions in the Quran, they legitimise those that do. That is, unless they are part of a reformed sect which doesn't believe in the ultimate authority of the Quran (are there any?). |
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| EddieZilker |
| quote: | Originally posted by Znack
I have huge problems with passages of the Quran. That is Islam itself. I don't care that many, many Muslims don't carry out the instructions in the Quran, they legitimise those that do. That is, unless they are part of a reformed sect which doesn't believe in the ultimate authority of the Quran (are there any?). |
Are you familiar with any other parts of the Quran? You don't know about the various denominations of Islam yet you speak with a great deal of authority about their intent and tacit sanction of a small minority who commit violence. You have such a rudimentary understanding of people you claim to be the enemy of. Yet you mirror their most radical element in the strains of backwards thinking incubating your beliefs.
I don't base my view of all Europeans based upon the offensive nature of what you've presented. |
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| Nrg2Nfinit |
| quote: | Originally posted by Znack
I have huge problems with passages of the Quran. That is Islam itself. I don't care that many, many Muslims don't carry out the instructions in the Quran, they legitimise those that do. That is, unless they are part of a reformed sect which doesn't believe in the ultimate authority of the Quran (are there any?). |
Have you even read the bible? The torah? they are all the same dumbass. |
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| Chris Crossland |
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| Znack |
| quote: | Originally posted by EddieZilker
Are you familiar with any other parts of the Quran? You don't know about the various denominations of Islam yet you speak with a great deal of authority about their intent and tacit sanction of a small minority who commit violence. You have such a rudimentary understanding of people you claim to be the enemy of. Yet you mirror their most radical element in the strains of backwards thinking incubating your beliefs.
I don't base my view of all Europeans based upon the offensive nature of what you've presented. |
I'm sick of people assuming that anyone who doesn't like Islam/the Quran knows nothing about it or hasn't read the Quran. Yes I've read the Quran. I've studied Islam and passed A-level exams on it. I don't know everything but I know far more than average. My question of whether there are any sects of Islam that do not view the Quran as the ultimate authority was meant to imply that none that I've read about do, but I'm not going to assume I know about all of them because I don't. I'm genuinely interested in the potential of reform in Islam and I'd love to know about any groups who differ in the fundamentals, such as believing Muhammad isn't the final prophet or believing something different about the authority of the Quran.
Legitimising the view that the Quran is an ultimate authority DOES legitimise the following of explicit instructions in the Quran. If some Muslims genuinely don't view the Quran that way then I fully support them and hope their views spread all through the Muslim world. But the currently mainstream view of the Quran does cause an insane amount of violence and oppression right now. It's not academic, it's literally true that this belief causes horrible suffering in the world RIGHT NOW. I therefore cannot support any form of Islam that has not reformed its view of the Quran. |
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| EddieZilker |
| quote: | Originally posted by Znack
I'm sick of people assuming that anyone who doesn't like Islam/the Quran knows nothing about it or hasn't read the Quran. |
Perhaps there's something about the way you're presenting which might lead one to believe that you're not quite up-to-date on your Quran reading. Every time I've asked you for a citation, you've resorted to providing rather unreliable sources and now you expect me to take your word that you did very well on a test for a class which involved reading the Quran?
You'll forgive me if I question the legitimacy of your credentials. |
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| Znack |
| quote: | Originally posted by EddieZilker
Perhaps there's something about the way you're presenting which might lead one to believe that you're not quite up-to-date on your Quran reading. Every time I've asked you for a citation, you've resorted to providing rather unreliable sources and now you expect me to take your word that you did very well on a test for a class which involved reading the Quran?
You'll forgive me if I question the legitimacy of your credentials. |
All you have been doing since the beginning of this thread, is making personal insults.
Maybe you could address some of the things in my last comment? I could not care less if you are questioning my credentials. |
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| Igaryok |
| I've never seen so much trolling going on in one thread before. |
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| Alex23 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Domesticated
it doesn't matter which religion is being discussed, the beliefs and ideologies are all as ridiculous as one another. |
:rolleyes:
We read the bible you read Dawkins, both have outrageous and impossible to prove claims. |
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| Joss Weatherby |
| quote: | Originally posted by Znack
All you have been doing since the beginning of this thread, is making personal insults.
Maybe you could address some of the things in my last comment? I could not care less if you are questioning my credentials. |
Seriously, quit harrassing this guy.
He just wants to kill the stupid sand ******s and kikey jew bastards that are trying to ruin the white race.
His goal is profoundly noble! This mans views are the wave of the future!
Did you know that pure white christian women are being taken back to these alien countries and raped for money! MONEY THAT GOES RIGHT INTO THE HANDS OF THEIR JEWISH OVERLORDS.
STOP SUPPORTING THE RAPE OF WHITE WOMEN BY ******S AND JEWS!
That is what you are trying to say right Znack? |
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| d-miurge |
| quote: | Originally posted by montana
i'm not disturbed to be honest. to be honest, what's happening in europe disturbs me, in general. it's not about religion, it's more about politics at large. |
Wise words.
This is what happens when you have an aging population who is more concerned by its own short-term situation than the future of its new generations.
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