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Thinking of Upgrading my Studio Monitors (pg. 5)
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| DJ RANN |
| quote: | Originally posted by Zombie0729
def try the Focal's man and the Adam's. You can't trust online reviews until you've heard them yourself. I abused guitar centers 30 day return policy, i tried 4 sets of speakers before i picked |
Same here. I drove my local GC's (two of them) ing crazy testing for hours over several weeks.
Nik, here's some previous posts to save you trawling through tons of threads.....
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ RANN
tbh, the mackie HR824 are known for, if anything, sounding a bit too sweet (if you disclude that muddy bit and scoop between upper bass and lower mid), so you're going to be hard pushed to find something that rapes you less.
The only monitors I can think of are going to set you back some serious coin:
Focal twins ($2k).
Quested VS2108 ($3k pair)
Barefoots ($4k)
PMC MB2's ($10k pair)
I've used all of them (the Quested and PMC's we have at the studio) and I think the first three on that list would be a great upgrade (especially the Focals or Barefoots) but honestly I would exhaust all other possibilities first - If you're getting fatigue with HR824's then maybe your room and listening position need to be looked at.
Is your monitor system calibrated to the K ssystem - if not I think this is probably going to change everything for you as you physically can't clip without making your ears bleed an it teaches you monitor at suitable volumes. |
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ RANN
I explained everything in this thread. You can't ever really do a fully scientifically controlled test unless you had a completely controlled environment and the space to set them up so you could A/B all of them without interference.
The best I could do was a comparitive test, taking the environment and placement in to consideration, so really they were all subject to the same disadvantages, then seeing if that same flaw (and positives) presented in the other listening environments, to really see if they were common traits of each monitor. I'm also an engineer so I've used a lot of monitors professionally and some of my feedback is based on my experience in professional studio environments (not bedroom or project studios).
http://www.tranceaddict.com/forums/...d=&pagenumber=5 |
And from the above thread.....
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ RANN
Finally, I've had time to sit down and write a review.
Preface: I listened to every monitor they had at two different guitar centers and one other pro audio store. I listened to mainly electronic music (becuase the whole point of this was it's for us) but also checked some classical such as Chopin, Bach and Bartok for more diverse reference. I used the same music sources and went on several occaisions. Bear in mind this is a comparitive test in every sense; going from my hifi speakers at home (Scnadyna Minipods) and Custom Quested VS2108's and B&W 802's (albeit less experience on the latter two for electronic music but still having referenced all the test material first on these several times). This was not a blind test but but I tried to remain objective between models on really noting differences first then overall perception. I set the monitors and the system so the volumes were as equal as could get them so A/Bing would be accurate with the same material. I don;t care for aesthetics ubnless the thing is just plain fugly, in which case I'll state it. Finally this is all my own subjective opinion.
This thread is about monitors, for the studio to the review I did is with that in mind as the primary requisite.
I'll start with the most noticeable things in no particular order:
Firstly, nearly all the 5 inch monitors, from every brand fell short in bass and/or mid reproduction. The ones that really felt lacking compared to their larger same brand alternatives were the KRK's and the Yama's, partly becuase the larger version were quite good and partly becuase the smallers were so bad.
The mackies/tapco's in 5 inch sizes (mr5's etc) were lacking a lot of detail but probably good for small home DJ setup and these went seroiusly loud before distorting. The HR624 were very crisp in the upper mids and hi's and but had so much bass response lacking they would be unusable for a serious monitoring setup. I would find it quite difficult to get a bass mix right on these without secondary referencing.
The bluesky monitors were good, if not some of the best smaller monitors but not quite enough to challenge the bigger monitors. They wer well balanced with good detail and a good amount of bass for their size but it did get a little muddy in the upper mid and the very low bass rolled off sharply. These were also quite pricey for what they were bearing in mind their competition.
The mackie HR824's were, at one point my monitor of choice, and even though a large part of mixing with monitors is knowing them, the more I've got to know them the less I like them. I find their mids very pronounced, bass hugely extended and hi's generally good. However, they have one of the biggest (and misleading) stereo spreads combinedwith a hige sweet spot meaning mixes done on them that sound wide and full come out narrow and lacking on most other systems. Also the bass is becoming my main gripe with these. I used to love it, but now I find a definite muddyness in between the lower mid and bass and have problems listening to subtle differences in these bands to the point I can;t hear what's going on. Don;t get me wrong - these are good monitors, but personally, I wouldn't shell out the $1000 per pair anymore as there's others that do a great job....
The KRK's: I would go through the models individually but all them (yes all of them) suffered from one common problem: there was this lack of fine detail accross the whole rnage of frequencies. It's wierd - none of them stood out as terrible but because of this problem, none of them stood out as fantastic. It's like a screen of material was placed over the driver. In fact the VRX8 were quite difficult to hear what was going on at all becuase like the mackies they suffer from the huge and unnatural stereo image. They were my least favourite 8inch monitors.
of the larger monitors (6inch+) , the ones that stood out were the Dynaudios BM5A, BM6A, Adam A7, Quested F11, Yamaha HS80m.
The dynaudios were superb in detail with strangly enough the BM5a's sounding slightly more natural than the BM6's due to the overall balance of the frequencies. The BM6 have more bass but the detail was just outstanding on the BM5's. The only critiscism of the BM5's was that they did lack bass slightly - It's like they slowly roll of at 100hz but that was the only flaw I could find and that can be adjusted for. They also did not change frequency balance depending on gain, which the BM6's did ever so slightly (bass got a tiny bit more pronounced as you went higher).
The Adam A7's were simply incredible with Hi's - crisp and sizzling, nothing else came close but the mid and bass felt lacking and they were not as clear as the Dynaudios and would not give a true representation of bass frequencies I felt.
The HS80's were quite great in general. The bass full and deep without being muddy or overpowering, the mids nice and clear and the hi's just nice and present. I felt you could listen to these for hours and they wouldn't even take long to get used to. The only problem is that you need a bog room as they begin to boom in a smaller room (as one of the test sites did). They don't have a misleading huge stereo image and I felt quite comfortable hearing productions I've made. These were in my top three especially as they are cheaper than a lot of other monitors.
Alesis m1 mk2 - not massively impressed but the again I never have been with these. They're not terrible and you can mix on them but again I find the lack of definition annoying, especially in the bass frequences.
Now for the surpise.....the moonitors that got me to part with money?
JBL LSR 2325 - New 5 inch monitors from JBL. Why? becuase for $400 (less with my discount ;) ) nothing else in that price bracket sounded anywhere near as good. I was torn between the HS80's (too big) the BM5's (too much $$$) or these. They are small, clear powerhouses! The bass is sharp and defined, the mids clear and punchy without being boxed in and the hi's are just right to give detail without inducing fatigue (hi's are what always get me tired in a session). The main thing I like is that it's like having larger monitors wihout needed the space for them, They sound like 6 or 8 inch monitors in terms of bass response but can be used in small room. The stereo image is broad but not too wide and so far translation is so easy. No weird spikes or compensation. There were no reviews on these anywhere (they were only out for 4 days when I bought them) so I was taking a big chance but I can say that after two weeks of owning them I am seriously pleased. honestly nothing comes close at this price and they just destroyed every other monitor in terms of perforamnce at that price range. |
Sorry for the wall of text, but honestly it's all been covered before. I may do an update in the next few months to see if any new offering change my mind but for the mmediate future this info still stands completely true for me. |
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| theterran |
small/medium/large being relative terms...
Care to elaborate?
Large for me was a non-walled off corner in a 2,500 sq. foot basement.
Small for me is a 10'x10' room. |
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| DJ RANN |
| quote: | Originally posted by theterran
small/medium/large being relative terms...
Care to elaborate?
Large for me was a non-walled off corner in a 2,500 sq. foot basement.
Small for me is a 10'x10' room. |
10 x 10 is very close getting there in terms of "small" but it's not quite tiny IMO. I've seen composers with rooms that size work just fine with decent treatment.
I'd say something smaller than that is "small", like 8' x 8' (besides the fact square rooms are a ing nightmare acoustically).
Medium to large is anything really bigger than that and frankly 2500sq is ing massive. Most control rooms I've ever been in aren't even half that size. , most recording rooms aren't even that big. You could quite easily record a full band in that, and still have room left over. |
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| evo8 |
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ RANN
Same here. I drove my local GC's (two of them) ing crazy testing for hours over several weeks.
Nik, here's some previous posts to save you trawling through tons of threads.....
And from the above thread.....
Sorry for the wall of text, but honestly it's all been covered before. I may do an update in the next few months to see if any new offering change my mind but for the mmediate future this info still stands completely true for me. |
Interesting comment about the Mackies, even with 12 basstraps in my room im finding translation to be a constant struggle |
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| Kysora |
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ RANN
wall of text |
Interesting read. Would you consider HS80's to be inferior to the JBL LSR 2325s in general, or are they only lacking considering they're more expensive? I was pretty dead set on getting HS80's but now I'm rethinking it after reading this. |
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| Nightshift |
wondering if anyone (especially DJ RANN) has heard these:
http://www.zzounds.com/item--TNYREVEAL501A
i may be in the market for upgrading my hi-fi setup to some 5" monitors soon and i have narrowed down the competition to the JBL LSR 2325 or the Tannoy Reveal 501a.
Only thing im worried about with the JBL is that i have to have my speakers pretty close to a wall, and since they are rear ported that could exaggerate bass alot more than the front ported Tannoys.
thoughts? |
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| ken_lee |
| to tell you the truth, dont place your monitors near the wall. ported or not it will sound terrible if the wall are hollow (bassproblems) or hard concrete (midrange problems). if its solid wood all the way through it might be decent. |
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| DJ RANN |
| quote: | Originally posted by evo8
Interesting comment about the Mackies, even with 12 basstraps in my room im finding translation to be a constant struggle |
With that much treatment (and knowing you, you did it right) you shouldn't be having to fight with them that much to get good translation however, but personally I don't like them to mix on at all. I used to love them (years ago) but with time I got to really understand their faults and it annoys when I use them to relaise that i'm having to compensate a lot for their quiet serious flaw(s). This is made worse by the fact their main flaw, is right in the lower mid/upper bass area, which is so critical to EDM. As mentioned before they have a deceiving quality, especially on the stereo image (huge sweet sopt and spread of the stereo image) which makes translation an active affort, rather than just forgetting about the monitors as such and just "working" on them. I actually like them just for listening to music on but not for mixing anymore.
There could be a other reasons they're not working for you though, and the first is that they may not suit your space or your setup. How big is you studio space? where do you have them located and are they on stands. I ask because I find the mackies suffer, far more than some other brands, from being too close to a rear wall (as they are rear radiator design) and not being on the right stands (the cabs can behave completely differently based on what surface they are mounted on).
The second, without getting too esoteric, is that some speakers just don't suit some people, and they way both their hearing, perception and brain works sometimes doesn't match with the specific nature of the speakers. Yes, you can teach yourself to compensate for anything but my opinion is that you should be compensating as little as possible.
Don't get me wrong, they're not bad monitors and really anyone should be able to get decent results but I just feel there's better out there that don't require the same sort of effort to do the same task.
| quote: | Originally posted by Kysora
Interesting read. Would you consider HS80's to be inferior to the JBL LSR 2325s in general, or are they only lacking considering they're more expensive? I was pretty dead set on getting HS80's but now I'm rethinking it after reading this. |
not sure how you came to that conclusion from what i have posted on here but the simple answer is no - the HS80's are superior monitors to the LSR 2325p's. They have more detail and slightly better bass response. The reason I went for the JBL LSR 2325p's is that at home I have a small producing space, and that is where the HS80's really fall down: in a small space the boom badly and become virtually unusable. IMO, if you have a small space the LSR 2325p's are the best on the market right now at that price point (and even a little higher).
If you have a bit more space then the HS80's are superb. IMO, they have set the standard at that price range in the same way mackie HR824' did for their price bracket a decade ago. The good news is IMO the HS80's are better than 824's for mixing and cheaper.
@nightshift, yes I've heard them and to be honest wasn't overly impressed. I've got a lot of love for Tannoy but these are just little budget monitors. They are bit too bright and don't have great bass response.
Palm is right - don't try to adapt you speaker choice to fit up against walls, you're always going to have problems like cab resonance and frequency anomalies during playback. My best advice is to move your setup away from the wall. a foot or 18 inches is enough to make a huge difference.
Go for the JBL LSR 2325p's - several other people on here have since bought them and been very pleased with the results. They are outstanding value and great, detailed monitors. |
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| evo8 |
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ RANN
With that much treatment (and knowing you, you did it right) you shouldn't be having to fight with them that much to get good translation however, but personally I don't like them to mix on at all. I used to love them (years ago) but with time I got to really understand their faults and it annoys when I use them to relaise that i'm having to compensate a lot for their quiet serious flaw(s). This is made worse by the fact their main flaw, is right in the lower mid/upper bass area, which is so critical to EDM. As mentioned before they have a deceiving quality, especially on the stereo image (huge sweet sopt and spread of the stereo image) which makes translation an active affort, rather than just forgetting about the monitors as such and just "working" on them. I actually like them just for listening to music on but not for mixing anymore.
There could be a other reasons they're not working for you though, and the first is that they may not suit your space or your setup. How big is you studio space? where do you have them located and are they on stands. I ask because I find the mackies suffer, far more than some other brands, from being too close to a rear wall (as they are rear radiator design) and not being on the right stands (the cabs can behave completely differently based on what surface they are mounted on).
The second, without getting too esoteric, is that some speakers just don't suit some people, and they way both their hearing, perception and brain works sometimes doesn't match with the specific nature of the speakers. Yes, you can teach yourself to compensate for anything but my opinion is that you should be compensating as little as possible.
Don't get me wrong, they're not bad monitors and really anyone should be able to get decent results but I just feel there's better out there that don't require the same sort of effort to do the same task.
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yeah the room i have at the moment is small, only 12' x 9' x 8, and as you can see the width and height are very close together which isnt good either, my last room plot indicated more traps needed but you start to run out of space for traps after a while
It just when I see Eric and others saying their mixes always translate easily, id love to be able to mix down a track without going to the car and listening and realising that the bass is too loud, kick is too long, kick isnt loud enough, that perc is sticking out of the mix etc.. It just takes more tweaks to get it right but im sorta getting used to it now i guess
Thats another thing about them, the mids are definitely pronounced, well in my room anyway. Cos if im previewing kicks the attack always sound very snappy to the point where im thinking "maybe should eq that down a bit" but every other system i listen to that kick on...its fine!
anyway im probably going abroad with work this year so i wont be making any changes, and after that id also be hoping to get a bigger space for mixing in, might makes things easier |
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| DJ TL |
| quote: | Originally posted by Nightshift
wondering if anyone (especially DJ RANN) has heard these:
http://www.zzounds.com/item--TNYREVEAL501A
i may be in the market for upgrading my hi-fi setup to some 5" monitors soon and i have narrowed down the competition to the JBL LSR 2325 or the Tannoy Reveal 501a.
Only thing im worried about with the JBL is that i have to have my speakers pretty close to a wall, and since they are rear ported that could exaggerate bass alot more than the front ported Tannoys.
thoughts? |
Im in the same boat as you, ive been using my HI FI stereo for the past year, definitly not a good idea. Im thinking of grabbing a pair of HS80's the price seems right.
quick question if I didnt buy a sub with these would there still be a big need for bass traps?
my room is about 14x12. |
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| DJ RANN |
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ TL
Im in the same boat as you, ive been using my HI FI stereo for the past year, definitly not a good idea. Im thinking of grabbing a pair of HS80's the price seems right.
quick question if I didnt buy a sub with these would there still be a big need for bass traps?
my room is about 14x12. |
DO NOT BUY A SUB. PERIOD. EVER.
I don't know how many ing times I have to say it on here for it to stick.
Subs, in 99% of STEREO monitoring situations will just cause problems.
Why? Because we work with an L and R channel not an L and an R and Sub Channel. There is no dedicated sub channel as such. (like with a 5.1 system where the sub has it's own channel and right up from the creation of the music, or at least the engineering of it).
There is also no standardisation for the crossover points on subs meaning depending on what sub you buy you could get a completely different response from your setup.
Subs are also a pain in the arse to get the placement right, even in treated rooms and unfortunately the vast majority of people who want subs for stereo setups know little about engineering or acoustic theory and are often upgrading from a hifi system, so it's highly unlikely they will know how to set it up, place it, treat the room accordingly and be able to work with it accurately.
Finally, YOU DON'T ING NEED IT. Remember, you're monitoring here, so the ideal is to get as flat a representation as possible. Normal monitors should have enough bass representation for all your producing needs.
And trust me, the HS80's have more than enough.
If you want a sub for listening purposes (if you like that sort of thing) then fine, but don't get one for monitoring. |
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| DJ TL |
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ RANN
DO NOT BUY A SUB. PERIOD. EVER.
I don't know how many ing times I have to say it on here for it to stick.
Subs, in 99% of STEREO monitoring situations will just cause problems.
Why? Because we work with an L and R channel not an L and an R and Sub Channel. There is no dedicated sub channel as such. (like with a 5.1 system where the sub has it's own channel and right up from the creation of the music, or at least the engineering of it).
There is also no standardisation for the crossover points on subs meaning depending on what sub you buy you could get a completely different response from your setup.
Subs are also a pain in the arse to get the placement right, even in treated rooms and unfortunately the vast majority of people who want subs for stereo setups know little about engineering or acoustic theory and are often upgrading from a hifi system, so it's highly unlikely they will know how to set it up, place it, treat the room accordingly and be able to work with it accurately.
Finally, YOU DON'T ING NEED IT. Remember, you're monitoring here, so the ideal is to get as flat a representation as possible. Normal monitors should have enough bass representation for all your producing needs.
And trust me, the HS80's have more than enough.
If you want a sub for listening purposes (if you like that sort of thing) then fine, but don't get one for monitoring. |
fair enough lol.
I think ive got my choice narrowed down to the yamaha hs80's or for a couple hundred for I could get the MSP7's.
either way guess I wont be grabbing a sub, lol. |
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