What if Charlie Sheen had starred in 1989's "Born on the Fourth of July" instead of Tom Cruise? Sheen has claimed that director Oliver Stone originally offered him the film's star role as paralyzed Vietnam vet and activist Ron Kovic.
Tweak
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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
do you have doubts about the veracity of his testimony with regards to something so trivial?
There's plenty of reasons to doubt his testimony with regards to everything, given his history, surely?
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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN but anyway, sure:
Hmmm Wright himself is sceptical about the document and translation of it. From reading that page my thoughts are al Qaeda was certainly the name of a base, (it's literal translation?), and seems to be more a location more than an international terrorist organisation.
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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN i dont think osama was particularly involved with the 1993 bombing, i think that was more KSM's scheme.
Agreed. I think the same of 9/11 though.
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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN im not quite sure im following your point. even if the term AQ (al qaida for those in the cheap seats) wasn't used until after 911, uh, so what? (of course it was, if this lowly terrorism student had heard of it), but im curious where you're going with this.
No real point, just curiosity. Please don't put me into some 'CT' box and ridicule me mercilessly, I don't think 9/11 was an inside job. I think the testimony from al-Fadl and fitting al Qaeda in perfectly with the RICO act to charge and indict Bin Laden in absentia is a little too perfect, but the whole situation/events is/are irregular so you do what you can I guess.
Can I ask what/where you study, if you don't mind sharing?
pkcRAISTLIN
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Originally posted by Tweak
There's plenty of reasons to doubt his testimony with regards to everything, given his history, surely?
with regards to such an irrelevant detail, i see no reason to doubt the origins of AQ's name.
quote:
Originally posted by Tweak
Hmmm Wright himself is sceptical about the document and translation of it. From reading that page my thoughts are al Qaeda was certainly the name of a base, (it's literal translation?), and seems to be more a location more than an international terrorist organisation.
which is why we don't give too much credence to a single source. but now we have 3.
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Originally posted by Tweak
Agreed. I think the same of 9/11 though.
Please don't put me into some 'CT' box and ridicule me mercilessly
sorry, these two comments do not compute. if you don't believe OBL and AQ were behind 911, and you're not an idiot "inside jobber", who was responsible? :conf:
quote:
Originally posted by Tweak
I don't think 9/11 was an inside job. I think the testimony from al-Fadl and fitting al Qaeda in perfectly with the RICO act to charge and indict Bin Laden in absentia is a little too perfect, but the whole situation/events is/are irregular so you do what you can I guess.
sorry, i don't follow. bin laden was never charged or indicted for 911. indeed, that's a popular CT meme.
quote:
Originally posted by Tweak
Can I ask what/where you study, if you don't mind sharing?
i graduated with hons in political theory from utas in 2001. half of my hons year was spent on terrorism and modern conflict. now, that's not remotely impressive (anyone can do an arts degree) but it was this part of my degree and a unit i took a year or two previously where al qaida was first a focal point of my education, well prior to 911, hence my amusement at assertions that AQ was not used until after.
i shared a room at "the shed" (where polsci hons students could study after hours, and in my case play yahoo chess) with a top bloke who was writing his dissertation on islamic extremism. naturally we discussed many issues, and obviously al qaida amongst them. the poor bastard was half-way through his thesis when 911 occurred, and had to make reasonably substantial re-writes due to his focus on the threats from islamic estremism being exaggerated. obviously he was probably right, but it wouldn't fly to hand in that idea only a couple of months afterwards, lol.
so yeah, im no expert but i certainly knew about AQ before 911, it took me less than 30 seconds on that tuesday night to name OBL and AQ as prime suspect*, which is apparently more than the truthers have managed in 10 years.
* edit: the exact quote 30 seconds after the tv channel went live to NY city was "looks like osama has been busy in the off-season".
Sushipunk
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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
the poor bastard was half-way through his thesis when 911 occurred, and had to make reasonably substantial re-writes due to his focus on the threats from islamic estremism being exaggerated.
This made me LOL pretty hard.
pkcRAISTLIN
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Originally posted by Sushipunk
This made me LOL pretty hard.
i have to say i laughed quite a bit. the best part was i think he was the last person in the world to find out about the attacks, because he was on some hiking trip in the middle of nowhere, without access to phones or anything. our dissertation supervisor was calling him madly for like 3 or 4 days.
"uh Tom, you're gonna have to look at re-writing your thesis".
"wtf? what for?"
"pick up a newspaper."
hahaha. good times.
Sushipunk
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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
i have to say i laughed quite a bit. the best part was i think he was the last person in the world to find out about the attacks, because he was on some hiking trip in the middle of nowhere, without access to phones or anything. our dissertation supervisor was calling him madly for like 3 or 4 days.
"uh Tom, you're gonna have to look at re-writing your thesis".
"wtf? what for?"
"pick up a newspaper."
hahaha. good times.
On the day, I was being a dirty, hippy backpacker in Byron Bay. I walked into the main kitchen room in the morning and it was packed with crying people. I could see the TVs with the replays of Planes >>> Buildings, but it just registered in my head as some kind of movie :wtf:
I didn't have to re-write :cool:
pkcRAISTLIN
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Originally posted by Sushipunk
I didn't have to re-write :cool:
:stongue: :stongue:
my main concern was how al qaida was gonna impact my plans for 12 months of unemployment in 2002.
Tweak
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Originally posted by Sushipunk
On the day, I was being a dirty, hippy backpacker in Byron Bay. I walked into the main kitchen room in the morning and it was packed with crying people. I could see the TVs with the replays of Planes >>> Buildings, but it just registered in my head as some kind of movie :wtf:
I didn't have to re-write :cool:
I was in a caravan with a couple of mates, all stoned out of our minds. We were starting to get mad that Sports Tonight had been interrupted, discussing the merits of a younger Sandra Sully, when we saw the 2nd plane impact live on the picture over her left shoulder. Of course we screamed at her to turn around and check it out.
Tweak
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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
with regards to such an irrelevant detail, i see no reason to doubt the origins of AQ's name.
Not the origin of it's name, more it's form.
I think it's in OBLs interests to take it and run with it, after the fact.
Change a few words in the Tareek Osama and it's meaning is changed completely.
There's nothing about al Qaeda being referenced by the French?
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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
sorry, these two comments do not compute. if you don't believe OBL and AQ were behind 911, and you're not an idiot "inside jobber", who was responsible? :conf:
KSM and some hardline followers, no doubt with a wider knowledge amongst the extremist community including Osama. I just don't believe there is a vast organisation with any true level of coordination, I hate the idea we can just lump all the bad guys together and call them al Qaeda. I would have thought if there is a real life KAOS out there it would have been in the fatwa, I mean we had al-Zawahiri signing as emir of Islamic Jihad, Ahmed Taha as part of al-Gama'a al-Islamiyya, Mir Hamzah as secretary of Jamiat Ulema-e Pakistan and Fazul Raman as emir of HUJI-B.
As a group they called themselves the World Islamic Front for Jihad Against Jews and Crusaders, no mention of aQ individual to Oasama or collectively?
Meh I'm far less of an expert than you, maybe he wanted to keep it secret.
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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN sorry, i don't follow. bin laden was never charged or indicted for 911. indeed, that's a popular CT meme.
When al Fadl testified in Jan 2001, about the 1998 Embassy bombings, for which he was charged and indicted I think?
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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN so yeah, im no expert but i certainly knew about AQ before 911, it took me less than 30 seconds on that tuesday night to name OBL and AQ as prime suspect*, which is apparently more than the truthers have managed in 10 years.
* edit: the exact quote 30 seconds after the tv channel went live to NY city was "looks like osama has been busy in the off-season".
With all respect, that doesn't make you correct.
pkcRAISTLIN
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Originally posted by Tweak
Not the origin of it's name, more it's form.
i thought you said AQ's name didnt exist prior to 911?
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Originally posted by Tweak
I think it's in OBLs interests to take it and run with it, after the fact.
well of course, but what substantive difference does that make to 911 even if you're correct?
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Originally posted by Tweak
Change a few words in the Tareek Osama and it's meaning is changed completely.
again, im not following your reasoning. so far, us lazy researches have 3 sources mentioning AQ and its origins.
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Originally posted by Tweak
There's nothing about al Qaeda being referenced by the French?
again, i need context for what you're asking. that link i provided mentioned a french quotation, not sure of the relevance specifically.
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Originally posted by Tweak
KSM and some hardline followers, no doubt with a wider knowledge amongst the extremist community including Osama. I just don't believe there is a vast organisation with any true level of coordination, I hate the idea we can just lump all the bad guys together and call them al Qaeda.
well, that's probably a fair point. but again, i find the existence of labels rather secondary to the understanding that islamic extremists exist and that their cells, more or less, are associated with a loose collection of "players" that may have called themselves AQ at one time or another. obviously they don't possess the organisational rigidities we may be more familiar with elsewhere, but i find it curious to argue that they don't exist, when compared to the relative sophistication of the 911 attacks, easily the most elaborate plan ever successfully enacted.
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Originally posted by Tweak
I would have thought if there is a real life KAOS out there it would have been in the fatwa, I mean we had al-Zawahiri signing as emir of Islamic Jihad, Ahmed Taha as part of al-Gama'a al-Islamiyya, Mir Hamzah as secretary of Jamiat Ulema-e Pakistan and Fazul Raman as emir of HUJI-B.
sorry, its been a while and am well out of the loop concerning which towel-head is leading which army of johad. all i know is that OBL's arm of jihad was responsible for 911.
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Originally posted by Tweak
When al Fadl testified in Jan 2001, about the 1998 Embassy bombings, for which he was charged and indicted I think?
oh right. i thought it was generally well established that AQ was linked to those bombings. i may be wrong but even if i am im not that concerned about which group of terrorists ultimately got blamed.
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Originally posted by Tweak
With all respect, that doesn't make you correct.
of course not. the evidence (including bin laden's admissions) make me correct. whether we'll know precisely what everyone's roles were prior (minus the 19 hijackers of course) to the attacks is up for debate, but there really is no question which (loose-knit) organisation was ultimately responsible.
