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World Cup 2022 Thread (pg. 15)
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| Lira |
| quote: | Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
A Brazilian refusing to admit Argentina have history's greatest player? Well, I never. |
:D
In my defence, I never said I have no biases :p
| quote: | Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
In all seriousness, this "GOAT" debate (and for the record, the horrible Americanism that is "GOAT" - I'm sure it only started getting widely used around 2017 to describe Messi and Ronaldo) is fundamentally unanswerable because football has evolved so much. |
That'd be pretty much my argument.
The whole GOAT debate rubs me off the wrong way not just because Messi Stans create the most ludicrous circular arguments to have their way, but because there can be no fair comparison between different eras, as you said. Or between different decades because, being Brazilian (and approaching my forties), I don't even think Cristiano Ronaldo can be uncritically considered the best Ronaldo, as one of our Ronaldos is the reason a poor sap now has to lie down behind the barrier (?) on every free kick, and the other one won not just one, but two Copa Américas and World Cups... but, of course, I'd be tooting my own green-and-yellow horn here.
If it were up to me, my debate would be about COGs, something like a "Council of Greats". Who are the cogs that made football go forward and evolve into a more beautiful game? Debating who the greatest cog is would be like asking which cog is the most important one in a clock, as all of them are critical for the time keeping operations of the device. Would Messi make it to the list? Sure. The three Portuguese speaking Ronaldos? Yeah. Maradona, Pelé, Garrincha, and Batistuta? Bring 'em on. Zlatan and Mbappé? Definitely. Anyway, who's the best out of the whole lot? As much as I'm biased towards Pelé, I'm fully aware that if I pick one, I wouldn't be fair to the others.
So yeah, down with the GOATs, up with the COGs. |
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| Sykonee |
Dammit, y'all triggered my "Well, actually..." here...
THIS is where GOAT started:
LL Cool J - G.O.A.T.
/yes, I had that CD
//I pawned it off
///it wasn't very GOATy |
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| SYSTEM-J |
| Yeah, I know the term has been around for years, but it never used to get dragged into football. It's like when Americans describe their president as the "POTUS". Why? |
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| Silky Johnson |
| I find personally with the use of POTUS it registers in my brain like POS, so it makes sense. |
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| Trance-M |
| I mainly know GOAT from F1 were it's used for Lewis Hamilton for several years now. |
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| Sykonee |
| quote: | Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
Yeah, I know the term has been around for years, but it never used to get dragged into football. It's like when Americans describe their president as the "POTUS". Why? |
Well, it's easier to type than "President Of The United States".
I'm surprised GOAT hadn't been dragged into soccer tho'. It comes up in ALL the American-based sports (Basketball, A. Football, Hockey, etc.). Heck, I've even seen it in Tennis discussions. |
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| SYSTEM-J |
It's completely redundant though. Is there anyone on the planet who doesn't live in a hut on the bank of the Amazon who doesn't know who is the US president? Just use the word "president". We'll keep up.
The GOAT insurgency has probably come about from the big increase in the popularity for soccerball in the US of A over the last decade. People were discussing whether Messi could be the best ever as far back as 2010 or 11 when he would routinely dribble through entire teams, but I'm convinced the widespread use of the phrase "GOAT" in the Messi vs Ronaldo debate is much more recent. And now people say it just to mean "very good", on just about any subject. Ugh. No. Get to . |
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| Lews |
| quote: | Originally posted by Sykonee
Dammit, y'all triggered my "Well, actually..." here...
THIS is where GOAT started:
LL Cool J - G.O.A.T.
/yes, I had that CD
//I pawned it off
///it wasn't very GOATy |
Well, actually the term goes back to Muhammed Ali and was, thus, originally an American sports-ism. LL Cool J was copying him. |
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| Sykonee |
| quote: | Originally posted by Lews
Well, actually the term goes back to Muhammed Ali and was, thus, originally an American sports-ism. LL Cool J was copying him. |
AH, touché.
I just remember first seeing it in reference to that album, then leaking into general hip-hop discourse (which rapper's the actual G.O.A.T.), then picking up steam in basketball when the Jordan-Kobe-Lebron debates started up. |
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| Lira |
This turned out to be a rather educational thread, I like where it's going.
| quote: | Originally posted by Trance-M
I mainly know GOAT from F1 were it's used for Lewis Hamilton for several years now. |
I... I guess maybe I'd have no quarrels with that as long as it's a title shared with Schumi, and Lewis might have something of an edge. I've not thought too long about it, but it would be more appropriate in their case, as either one has so many more championship titles to their names than whole countries it's unbelievable... except for a Hamilton-less UK (13 titles) and us (8 titles). Unlike football, there's just one F1 league, so comparison is somewhat easier, and it's a bit less of a collective sport (even if the teams count and the cars aren't exactly the same).
Are there any arguments against the two of them being considered GOATs? |
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| Midlothian |
| There was only one true American Goat Man and that was Ches McCartney. |
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| Lira |
| quote: | Originally posted by Lira
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FIFA has just considered this the most beautiful goal of the competition.
It's no cup, but I guess it's better than nothing. Coo. |
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