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What happens when you die ? (pg. 14)
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| kirbtastic |
oh yea and i forgot...im an idiot for saying that from a "catholic point of view"..people who dont believe in jesus are going to burn in hell.
once again..let me say that the above statement is not my point of view..i dont belive in heaven or hell...i believe in the law of conservation |
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| Michael Russo |
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i knew that this comment on my part would raise controversy...its a strong, may seem stupid, statement. allow me to reply in the same fashion you did?
i know what you meant in your statement about people talking about things they don't know about...i guess i was simply demonstrating a different dynamic that i find peoples ignorance in...not their lack of knowledge, but resisting the ability to construct their own reasons for things. i cannot tolerate people that simply go along with something because they are raised to do so. i believe that people should come to their own conclusions through a rational process of thought. now some might say "well you follow science" or whatever the medium is, but i would have to say that these arguments are well supported and rational. questions of religion are different... i just don't see how people can listen to it because it is all assumptions passed on through the generations. What separates one man's beliefs from another...if your christian you believe in god because "god wanted it that way" thats the final answer.
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Floorfiller, I agree with what you said above. But you must realize that not all people who believe in God do so because of what was learned in their childhood... if you study the faith from a philosophical point of view, you will realize that many have formed their beliefs "through a rational process of thought." You seem to have a preconceived notion that everyone who believes in religion has no sense of reason, when in reality its the people who don't believe in God that are being illogical... i'll get back to this when I address Arbiter's comment.
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i also must believe that their are very few people out there that truly believe in their religion...at least in america anyway i suppose a great deal of muslims are very devote, but in the developed western world religion has become something that people state as their religion, but don't actually practice it...people mentioned earlier not going to church but that its ok because god ok's it? thats bull. people's abilities to arbitarially pick and choose what they "believe" simply to make their lives more convenient and have this false security of being "heavenly" just shows how absurd religion has become. |
True, but that doesn't discount religion... it's just our "convenient" interpretation of it.
| quote: | | addressing the people you mentioned i.e. einstein etc... these are very smart people, but academics is something different. i could be a complete math genius but be a complete idiot at other things. no doubt these people you mentioned have special talents, but without the ability to see through religious propoganda i don't know where they stand in my list of intelligent rational people. |
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He would gladly assert that Einstein had the intellectual capacity of a toad.
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Funny how you try and downplay my argument... The comment made was that anyone who believes in religion was dumb, and I provided examples of people who weren't. You want to "uninclude" Einstein... fine. But what about the others?
I find it quite ironic that someone with such a scientific mind could believe in God, based on the current opinions of many scientists who think that they are above everything and everyone else because they study something somebody else made.
And what about Newton? Now I could be wrong here, but I'm pretty sure that he also believed in God. In terms of science, his work has had collosal impact, probably unmatched by anyone else, at least until before we moved into quantum mechanics.
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no this guy was saying that as a roman catholic which is a CHRISTian...you dont have to belive in jesus to go to heaven.
he never heard of the spanish inquisition...or all of the many people that were killed in that name of Jesus..for not converting...by the way..they were trying to convert these "heathens" so that they would belive in jesus..and so their souls could be saved.
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Yeah... inquisition? What's that? Sorry, I didn't know what I was talking about.
Seriously though, you bring up a bad time in Church history... along with the conversions forced by barbarian tribes, as well as the conversions forced by Romans, its easy to think that you have to believe in Jesus to be saved. In reality, however, these are examples of religious extremists that have no concept of religion besides what wrong things they've been taught... they are an example of people with no concept of a "rational process of thought," as we've been discussing above.
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please elaborate. i really don't know much at all about the catholic faith, but i would really like to understand how you could be a christian without believing in heaven. |
Thank you for asking nicely :)
Think of it this way... Philosphically, we reason that God must be several things (eg. infinite, good, etc.) because if God were not these things, He would not be God.
Now imagine how completely and utterly unfair it would be if God were to save people based solely on faith. There are good people around the world who have never heard of Jesus, just as there are good people who have heard of Jesus but can't bring themselves to believe. Are these people suddenly made bad? No! Religions are something that are revealed. Because they are not innate, this makes it impossible to separate the good and the evil based solely on a belief. Morality, on the other hand, is innate, and it is the same for all persons and for all times. Thus, we have all the atheists and agnostics that live good moral lives. Because morality is innate... a part of us... it can be used to separate those who are to go to Heaven and those who are to go to Hell.
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well i was an alter boy from the age of 10..and i went to catholic school until the age of 16..that was what i was taught..and im not against religion at all..religion helps instill a good set of values, it gives something for people to believe in and gives hope. i just choose not to believe in it anymore.
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Comments like these scare me because I really think that the Catholic Church desperately needs some help in the area of education, in the sense that their education is more destructive (through shoving it down people's throats) than constructive. Hence the bad comments about religion...
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oh yea and i forgot...im an idiot for saying that from a "catholic point of view"..people who dont believe in jesus are going to burn in hell.
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Umm... I don't know how many times I have to say this, but yeah... seeing as that isn't the Catholic point of view at all, maybe you could get the picture.
But that's not why I called you an idiot in the first place! It was because of your alien comment, which is one of the dumbest things I've read, especially from someone with such knowledge of the faith.
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but dont try to argue with him because he knows what he is talking about...and he is not wrong on this subject.
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Ahh... sarcasm... I like that :)
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But I don't agree entirely. Because whether or not you realize it, I can guarentee there are things about you that were formed during your early childhood that you've never really questioned. I, too, try to question everything, but I'm sure there are things about me that are a direct byproduct of my upbringing. The fact is, a small child is defenseless against indoctrination by the people who care for him. For some people, these things they learn at this age become so central to their existence, that trying to get them to seriously consider the possibility that they are false is like... well much like trying to tell someone they've been living in a dream world their entire life (i.e. The Matrix).
I strongly believe there is no greater violation a parent can commit against their child than religious/moral indoctrination. It is the spiritual version of rape, but frequently the emotional and intellectual scars it leaves are even more profound. Any parent who has any respect for their offspring would want their children to come to their own conclusions - not to simply accept the same ones they came to (or were pushed into coming to...)
But in this violation, I don't think it's right to blame the victim, just because they were too weak to defend themselves at the time it happened, and because they've been sapped off the strength to break away from the bonds of their past
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Back to what I was saying at the beginning of this post... I find it quite funny when people bitch and whine about being raised in a religious family, yet are indoctrinated into our current culture without a fuss.
Yes, there are things about people that are a direct result of their upbringing. Is that necessarily a bad thing? We blame parents when their children are bad, justly, and praise parents when their children are good, also justly.
Who are you to say that religious beliefs form a child wrongly? Is being a good person a bad thing?
I know where you're coming from, but the bottom line is that there are people who will question, and people who won't, regardless of their upbringing. People who will question, will question regardless of whether they are brought up in a fanatical religious family or not. People who don't question are simply too complacent to think for themselves, and I have little sympathy for them. Often (and unfortunately), these people happen to be the devout religious. But what about the non-questioning people who are brought up without religion? They become the same as the non-questioning devout religious, just with opposite views. Is this bad as well? For sure... yet it was the direct result of a non-religious upbringing. Now choose... which is worse? |
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| Izzy |
| quote: | Originally posted by Michael Russo
Think of it this way... Philosphically, we reason that God must be several things (eg. infinite, good, etc.) because if God were not these things, He would not be God.
Now imagine how completely and utterly unfair it would be if God were to save people based solely on faith. There are good people around the world who have never heard of Jesus, just as there are good people who have heard of Jesus but can't bring themselves to believe. Are these people suddenly made bad? No! Religions are something that are revealed. Because they are not innate, this makes it impossible to separate the good and the evil based solely on a belief. Morality, on the other hand, is innate, and it is the same for all persons and for all times. Thus, we have all the atheists and agnostics that live good moral lives. Because morality is innate... a part of us... it can be used to separate those who are to go to Heaven and those who are to go to Hell. |
wow i did not know that at all about cathlics! how cool. Judiasim says the same thing in that you can be any religion or you dont have to belive in God to go to heaven but rather be a moral and good person (i guess he would be the one deciding that). |
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| TranceGiant |
Religion and Science..a very paradoxical relationship!
One the one hand: The less we "know" (scientifically, for example back in the old days--> the non existing explanation for natural disasters) the more we are likely to "believe" (in the aforementioned case--> some nature god whos becoming angry now and then).
BUT and that's what makes it paradoxical, apparently the MORE we know, for instance about the perfect structure of DNA, our solar system, galaxies, gravitation, the significant role of the "light", the space-time continuum etc. etc. again one might, is even moved to believe that there DOES exist some super-logcial "plan" or "thing" that created and shaped everything.
In any case...as long as the big mystery of after-life remains unsolved religion will exist.
I also think that calling intelligence and religious belief mututally exclusive is a unjustified false statement. religion is NOT only a comfortable way to stop worrying or thinking or doubting things, it can be just as inspiring as science, can give hope, help ppl..spread love
:thepirate |
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| Arbiter |
| quote: | Originally posted by Michael Russo
Yes, there are things about people that are a direct result of their upbringing. Is that necessarily a bad thing? We blame parents when their children are bad, justly, and praise parents when their children are good, also justly. |
It becomes a bad thing when parents tell young children things, asserting them as facts, which are of dubious or controversial truth value. Fundamentally, there is no difference between a Satanist indoctrinating his or her child than a Christian.
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Who are you to say that religious beliefs form a child wrongly? Is being a good person a bad thing?
I know where you're coming from, but the bottom line is that there are people who will question, and people who won't, regardless of their upbringing. People who will question, will question regardless of whether they are brought up in a fanatical religious family or not. People who don't question are simply too complacent to think for themselves, and I have little sympathy for them. Often (and unfortunately), these people happen to be the devout religious. But what about the non-questioning people who are brought up without religion? They become the same as the non-questioning devout religious, just with opposite views. Is this bad as well? For sure... yet it was the direct result of a non-religious upbringing. Now choose... which is worse? |
I don't think the issue is that simple. It's easy to say that a child, when born, is either going to be one to question or not. But it seems far more likely that a child's tendency to question is stronly influenced by his or her upbringing. When a child is raised in a devoutly religious environment, the child is not being encouraged to question things, instead, the child is being encouraged to accept things on faith.
It's also interesting how you equate religious upbrining with moral behavior, when there is no evidence to suggest that any such relationship exists. In fact, given the recently illuminated perversity which has been stirring great controversy regarding the Catholic church, one could make quite a compelling argument that an inverse relationship is apparent (that is, without even referring to the morally devoid relationship between Muslims and Jews, or any of the innumerable historical references that have already been mentioned in this thread). |
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| DJ Chrono |
| quote: | Originally posted by Michael Russo
1) Don't even attempt to talk from the Catholic point of view because you have no idea what it is. |
Appearently neither do you.
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2) You don't have to believe in Jesus to go to Heaven.
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"He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life; and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him." John 3:36
How can you possibly say "You don't have to believe in Jesus to go to Heaven." Where are you learning this?
Let's take the dictionary definition of "christian" (from The American HeritageŽ Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition)
Chrisˇtian
adj.
1. Professing belief in Jesus as Christ or following the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus.
This entire religion is based on Jesus. If you don't believe in him, HOW ON EARTH ARE YOU A CHRISTIAN?? And if you are suggesting you don't have to be christian to go to heaven (which you are, in your point 3)) then what is the point of the christian religion? You could practice any religion, or none at all, aslong as you are a good person, and end up going to heaven. What you are saying is blasphemy.
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3) Just because you're a Jew, Muslim, Buddhist, etc. doesn't mean you're going to Hell.
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"Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God; because many false prophets are gone out into the world." John 4:1
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4) All the people born before Jesus did not go to Hell.
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For once you are right. People had to make animal sacrifices before Jesus died, to show their belief etc in God.
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5) You don't have to be baptized to go to Heaven, just as you can burn in Hell even if you were baptized.
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Baptism is a symolic act to signify the purification of your soul when you enter into the Christian faith. I agree, it is not necessarily essential to go to heaven.
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Umm.. that's the real Catholic position on this whole issue. And don't even try arguing because I'm not wrong.
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You're not wrong? And your perpective is the "real catholic position"? I really wonder how you can say some of these things, and maintain that it is the real Catholic position. That is suggesting that the Roman Catholic Church is blasphemous. |
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| Floorfiller |
| quote: | Originally posted by Michael Russo
Floorfiller, I agree with what you said above. But you must realize that not all people who believe in God do so because of what was learned in their childhood... if you study the faith from a philosophical point of view, you will realize that many have formed their beliefs "through a rational process of thought." You seem to have a preconceived notion that everyone who believes in religion has no sense of reason, when in reality its the people who don't believe in God that are being illogical... i'll get back to this when I address Arbiter's comment. |
if that can be assumed as true, then this would be acceptable. i did say that people that come to their own beliefs through their own thoughts is ok. the only thing i doubt is religions ability to be discussed philosophically without that being distorted so then as to affect the fundamentals of any one religion changing so that it know longer closly resembles that religion, but is instead morphed into a different set of beliefs.
| quote: | | True, but that doesn't discount religion... it's just our "convenient" interpretation of it. |
true but that should also be looked at as a reason for people not truly believing. if we all seem to manipulate religion to become what we want, it seems that we would be following such doctrine simply for our own benefit which undermines all that religion stands for. if we commit just for selfish reasons that is ironic since religion should be anything but greedy.
| quote: | Funny how you try and downplay my argument... The comment made was that anyone who believes in religion was dumb, and I provided examples of people who weren't. You want to "uninclude" Einstein... fine. But what about the others?
I find it quite ironic that someone with such a scientific mind could believe in God, based on the current opinions of many scientists who think that they are above everything and everyone else because they study something somebody else made.
And what about Newton? Now I could be wrong here, but I'm pretty sure that he also believed in God. In terms of science, his work has had collosal impact, probably unmatched by anyone else, at least until before we moved into quantum mechanics. |
i think perhaps i didn't state my position very well since you obviously missed what i was saying. i wasn't making an exception for eintsein, but stating that someone can have i called them talents i.e. science, mathematics, writing, speaking, etc and still be totally irrational when it comes to religion. the thing i was saying was that having such a smart perspective in other areas if anything is worse then the stupid guy who blindly follows a religion because they have the ability to reason through religion and haven't.
| quote: | Thank you for asking nicely :)
Think of it this way... Philosphically, we reason that God must be several things (eg. infinite, good, etc.) because if God were not these things, He would not be God.
Now imagine how completely and utterly unfair it would be if God were to save people based solely on faith. There are good people around the world who have never heard of Jesus, just as there are good people who have heard of Jesus but can't bring themselves to believe. Are these people suddenly made bad? No! Religions are something that are revealed. Because they are not innate, this makes it impossible to separate the good and the evil based solely on a belief. Morality, on the other hand, is innate, and it is the same for all persons and for all times. Thus, we have all the atheists and agnostics that live good moral lives. Because morality is innate... a part of us... it can be used to separate those who are to go to Heaven and those who are to go to Hell. |
i think you miss the point of morality here. i can tell you have a notion of what morality is, but i simply don't agree with all of it. first off, morality does not transcend time, but what is thought of as moral is a direct result of the time and culture that one lives in. i know that you are thinking of larger scale morals that people have such a stealing and murder etc, but morality is more then the ten commandments. morals in our society can and do differ from those of other countries. |
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| kirbtastic |
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ Chrono
Appearently neither do you.
"He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life; and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him." John 3:36
How can you possibly say "You don't have to believe in Jesus to go to Heaven." Where are you learning this?
Let's take the dictionary definition of "christian" (from The American HeritageŽ Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition)
Chrisˇtian
adj.
1. Professing belief in Jesus as Christ or following the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus.
This entire religion is based on Jesus. If you don't believe in him, HOW ON EARTH ARE YOU A CHRISTIAN?? And if you are suggesting you don't have to be christian to go to heaven (which you are, in your point 3)) then what is the point of the christian religion? You could practice any religion, or none at all, aslong as you are a good person, and end up going to heaven. What you are saying is blasphemy.
"Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God; because many false prophets are gone out into the world." John 4:1
For once you are right. People had to make animal sacrifices before Jesus died, to show their belief etc in God.
Baptism is a symolic act to signify the purification of your soul when you enter into the Christian faith. I agree, it is not necessarily essential to go to heaven.
You're not wrong? And your perpective is the "real catholic position"? I really wonder how you can say some of these things, and maintain that it is the real Catholic position. That is suggesting that the Roman Catholic Church is blasphemous. |
THANK YOU DJ CHRONO!!!!!!!!!!
the only thing im having trouble with is the fact that u said people before jesus had to sacrifice animals to show they beleive in God..these people were not Christians...they were Jews, which Chritianity was derived from. So if "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life; and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him." John 3:36 is true...by this fact alone these people should not be able to enter the gates of heaven...not because they didnt belive in God, but because they never even had the chance to know or belive in Jesus.
The way i look at it, Christianity is the sequal to Judaism. Christians and Jews both beleive in the same basic moral laws from the old testament...the torah or the pentateuch defines the way they should live. as an athiest..i take certain things from the old and new testament and apply it to my life...to help me be a good person and to be good to the people around me. |
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| kirbtastic |
sorry one more thing...that whole belive in jesus thing seems to be a paradox..how could u beleive in jesus if u were born before him, and then how could u go to heaven if u dont belive in jesus??
i love religious conversations...and this one is getting good. im not trying to put down any ones religion..and i respect all of your opinions. i am just trying to understand other points of view. |
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| DJ Chrono |
Im pretty sure that the book of John was written in the new testement,
and I guess the rules to get into heaven changed after Jesus was born! |
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| Floorfiller |
| quote: | Originally posted by kirbtastic
sorry one more thing...that whole belive in jesus thing seems to be a paradox..how could u beleive in jesus if u were born before him, and then how could u go to heaven if u dont belive in jesus??
i love religious conversations...and this one is getting good. im not trying to put down any ones religion..and i respect all of your opinions. i am just trying to understand other points of view. |
obviously dj chrono meant that these people didn't believe in jesus because like you said they came before jesus, but they still believed in some sort of god and although they practiced in a different way from those that followed jesus, god would not punish them for their lack on knowledge. i can't believe i said something for the other side... |
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| a-aplz |
Well since we're all entitled to our own opinions, I won't say believing in God, Heaven, or Hell is wrong. But here is my opinion:
I believe we're just a group of molecules. When we die we stop functioning, and there is no soul that carrys on to the afterlife, as a few others pointed out. Heaven, Hell, and God were all made up for people to believe in. There was no "Big Bang" or "Adam and Eve" that started our species, we're just in the right places that's sutiable the sustain life form. Unless there is physical proof that any of that took place, you can't say it happened, only believe it did.
| quote: | | Now, to believe in god as some supreme being that created all around us, like our universe is acceptable to me. But believing he did it 7000 years ago, and all of it's creation centered around earth and humans is definiteley not. Why the hell would he create all the planets and galaxies in the universe, if he would plant life on only one of them? And why bother the only ones he did create with bunch of unreal planted evidence for things that don't exist? |
A very good point there. There is a 99.9% chance, well possibly 100%, that there is life form in millions of other places out there. Our knownledge dosent go much farther then our solar system (and even we don't know too much about it), so nobody on Earth can make the assumption that there is no other planets in the galaxy that can be sutable to contain life.
But hell, nobody on Earth can truly say what is what. Nobody knows how life was started or what it means. Btw, since it looks like this thread was turned into a argument between people who believe in God and people who don't, I'll answer the original question of the thread. :) What do I believe happens when we die? Well, I believe we just get put into a hole in the ground and rott and decompose and return back into the Earth where we came from. (btw, I'm tired so some of the stuff I said may not make since) :) |
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