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What happens when you die ? (pg. 7)
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| G K Murray |
*snif snif*
A nasty aroma is intensley multiplying from a certain farmyard animal. |
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| DrUg_Tit0 |
Nice that you take time to think about non-christian beliefs.
| quote: | | It's just something that you can't answer but you'll get that answer when it's time |
Or you die and rot away and never get the answer because there isn't one. |
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| Renegade |
| quote: | | Just think about the science behind life. What are the chances that every chemical balance and molecular structure etc of things is just so, that what we have here is a world. A world that is set so perfectly that it can sustain life, with just the right amount of atomospheric gases that we breath, with a continuous supply of water, and just the right temperatures that keeps us from dying. |
You may want to familiarise yourself with the "anthropic principle".
I'm not going to bother explaining it here, but if you actually want to learn something there's plenty of info out there about it. This is a good place to start:
www.anthropic-principle.com
It's worth remembering that it is not our world that is perfectly suited to us, but rather it is we who are perfectly suited to it. Small but important difference.
| quote: | | ANd that we have such sophisticated brains that we can develop such things as microprocessors, and computers like we're using now. Can you even fathom the workings of a computer? And humans created it. |
Our technological adeptness is merely the pleasant side-effect of the sum of our large brains, our ability to communicate and our opposable thumbs: and all of these things can be demonstrated to have evolved for reasons other than that which they are used for today.
Once again, I'm not going to attempt a lengthy explanation as to why humans were forced - as a result of their environment - to evolve as they did, but the information's out there if you want to learn.
| quote: | | I find it hard to believe that everything was coinsidence, and that we just happen to exist here for no purpose at all. |
Just because we're not the result of some "grand cosmological plan" and are instead merely a tremendously succesful organic accident, it doesn't mean that our lives cannot be lived with purpose.
Once again, it depresses me to find how many people fail to see meaning in life merely because there is no God.
| quote: | | Ok first of all if you believe people have souls, then I doubt you would believe in evolution. |
Evolution isn't a belief system, it's a system of well researched facts. Just because you don't "believe" in it (can I ask you why not, btw?) it doesn't mean that it isn't the most correct explanation we have for the state of our speciate existence.
You can deny the theories pertaining to gravity if you like as well, but it doesn't mean you'll be able to start falling up.
| quote: | | Honestly. You should really understand a religion before making points against it. Christians don't believe in evolution, therefor nullifying your point. |
Sorry, but that makes no sense whatsoever.
Once again, you can deny the validy of evolution all you like (given the vast amounts of scientific research I'm sure you've put into the topic) but it doesn't mean that you can avoid the fact that you're effectively 5,000th generation neanderthal.
And before you accuse me of not understanding Christianity, I should point out that I went to an anglican high-school for six years and have had the Christian mentality shoved down my throat since primary school (where they send out reverends to school to make sure they get em while they're young and unable to discriminate fact from fiction). You can accuse me of whatever you like, but ignorance of the Christian faith should not be one of them.
| quote: | | How can you proove this? Another stupid point on your behalf. |
I don't need to prove the non-existence of souls. I'm making a negative ontological claim, and such a claim can only be disputed by making a positive ontological claim. That is, I can say "there's no such thing as unicorns" and unless someone can show me a unicorn, my point is valid.
If I say that something doesn't exist, it is up to you to prove otherwise, as a negative claim such as the one I'm making can never be proved definitively (as unicorns/souls may exist in some part of the universe that we haven't found yet) but can only be disproved by the positive demonstration of what I am denying. If souls exist, show me one. If you can't, then I can merely ask how you can be so sure that they do?
Oh, and calling my points "stupid" does not constitute a valid argument.
| quote: | | What does this have to do with valuing life less? If anything it creates more value on one's life. Instead of living for no reason at all but to die and decompose, this life has a purpose. |
So far as I see it, an infinite life is worthless. Why acheive something today when I have all of eternity to do it in? What value can we possibly hold in life when we know that we - and every human on the planet - cannot actually die?
Heidegger said that only by breaching Nothingness (death) can we truly understand the nature of our essential being (dasein). I can't disagree with him. Death is that which makes life worth living.
| quote: | | One is not determined by one's soul. One determine's one's own soul by how they act/think/etc. If someone get's brain damage, then that's unfortunate but they still have the ability to act and think. |
Then what's the difference between "oneself" and "one's soul then"?
If it is one's soul that goes up to heaven, and not one's self, then what part of the self is lost in this existential transition? |
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| FuzzyGreen |
The funny thing is, you guys are only touching the top part of this subject, the most obvious and simple part of it, lets get deeper:
Maybe our minds aren't complex enough to understand what else is out there? Maybe there is another dimension that we cannot see, smell, hear, or touch? Maybe the secrets of our existance can be found there.
If the whole universe was made from a "big bang", what made that? then what made that? and again, what was before that?
Maybe we already are God's, we just don't know it yet, or maybe we are just a bunch of brains in jars of water sitting in a lab on another planet and nothing we do or see is real. But how do we define real?
Ok, time to turn to drugs... |
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| TranceGiant |
| Love doesn't exist. |
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| Michael Russo |
Hmm... another religious debate
Some comments after skimming through:
1) I don't know what evolution has to do with any of this, but whoever said Christians don't believe in it doesn't know what he's talking about because it doesn't contradict any Church teaching
2) What does entropy have to do with anything? It's funny how some of us bring up science to justify convenient skepticism when, in reality, it has no bearing |
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| halo |
| quote: | Originally posted by FuzzyGreen
The funny thing is, you guys are only touching the top part of this subject, the most obvious and simple part of it, lets get deeper:
Maybe our minds aren't complex enough to understand what else is out there? Maybe there is another dimension that we cannot see, smell, hear, or touch? Maybe the secrets of our existance can be found there.
If the whole universe was made from a "big bang", what made that? then what made that? and again, what was before that?
Maybe we already are God's, we just don't know it yet, or maybe we are just a bunch of brains in jars of water sitting in a lab on another planet and nothing we do or see is real. But how do we define real?
Ok, time to turn to drugs... |
I wouldn't go for the argument of our minds not complex enough... there are some mathematical therories trying to describe our universe in 9 space and one time-coordinates... it's hard to imagine how this schould look like, but it can be described in mathematical terms with no problem.
Only problem with such higher dimensions is, that noone has ever experienced the effects imlied by them.
And whoever said that the "big bang" theory describes the very first seconds of our universe? This theory always caused a lot of controversity... as it is derived from the red-shift of spectres of distant stars. Big bang says this is due to the Doppler-Effect and the stars ar drifting away from us... but there are other explanations that have no need for an expansion(->light aging). |
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| halo |
| quote: | Originally posted by Michael Russo
Hmm...2) What does entropy have to do with anything? It's funny how some of us bring up science to justify convenient skepticism when, in reality, it has no bearing |
lots... it founds to my view of life. As some couldn't follow my post just saying there's nothing after death. I had to justify my point... others did by naming their fears or some other religious stuff. |
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| DrUg_Tit0 |
| quote: | | Maybe our minds aren't complex enough to understand what else is out there? Maybe there is another dimension that we cannot see, smell, hear, or touch? Maybe the secrets of our existance can be found there. |
What exactly do you mean by other dimension? Do you mean like an additional dimension to the current 3+1 dimensions, or another 3d world through which you get by some sort of a wormhole, like another dimension would be described in a bad 3d movie?
Anyways, if it's the first case, then it doesn't sound possible that the answers are there. And in other case, it would just be hardly probable...
But what I don't understand is why do we HAVE to have a higher purpose? It is a pretty egocentric view, which basically says that god is here for us, to determine who fulfilled his purpose and who didn't. What's the point of a christian god without humans? Just to sit there and be there? And if he's perfect, why would he create us? He couldn't be bored, and even before creating anything, he knows what is going to happen with what he crates. He knows exactly who is going to go to heaven and who isn't, even before the person is born. So he creates individuals with the ability to choose, but knows right away what they will chose. Some individuals created are destined to go to hell, and he still allows the creations of people who are going to spend all of their existance except a finite amount of it in eternal pain and agony??? Also, it is surprising that god would only show himself to a small tribe which at that time was less than 1% of the world's population, and let all other people who were not believers die and not go to heaven without giving any of them at least a chance.
Also, through history, and even now, as I see from the evolution opposing people (which the official church doesn't oppose, it is more or less undefined about it), christianity and the bible were and are the worst adversaries of scientific research and free thinking. Most new theories like the roundness of the eart and evolution were dismissed by church, and people who brought up those ideas were opressed/expelled/punished/killed. Only a few years ago the official church said that it was wrong when it forced G. Galilei to say that the earth is not rotating aroud the sun. Now I'm not sure why a god would want so much harm and stagnation to come out of his messages. He knew it would happen, he knew inquisition would happen, he knew Giordano Bruno will be burned, as so many others...and still, he did nothing about it.
| quote: | | Maybe we already are God's, we just don't know it yet, or maybe we are just a bunch of brains in jars of water sitting in a lab on another planet and nothing we do or see is real. But how do we define real? |
Maybe, but as long as there is no evidence for it, it shouldn't be considered as a viable options. |
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| DJ Chrono |
| quote: | Originally posted by Michael Russo
1) I don't know what evolution has to do with any of this, but whoever said Christians don't believe in it doesn't know what he's talking about because it doesn't contradict any Church teaching
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Yeah good one, I dont know what I'm talking about. Adam and Eve never really existed then in the christian perspective, and we all evolved from microrganisms after millions of years and slowly evolved into our current state.
Of course evolution is contradicted by church teachings! It is practically the opposite: Christians believe we were created in the same form that we exist today. Not to mention that the bible says the world is only around 7,000 years old. |
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| DJ Chrono |
ok renegade.
I understand your point of the anthropic principle, it makes sense (if you believe in evolution).
| quote: | | Evolution isn't a belief system, it's a system of well researched facts. Just because you don't "believe" in it (can I ask you why not, btw?) it doesn't mean that it isn't the most correct explanation we have for the state of our speciate existence. |
I don't believe in evolution for many reasons (and I am not blindly saying this, I took anthropology, and though I might not have a perfect understanding of these researched facts, I have a fair understanding of them). Firstly, I find it hard to believe that we originated from micro-organisms that evolved into neanderthals, that in turn evolved into what we currently are. How is it, that all these microorganisms evolved into different things; plants, animals, humans. Why were we the only stem of these evolved organisms that developed a high intelligence, and why did all the others stay far behind?
Other reasons invlove my religion, and I'm sure you've heard them all bbefore if you've been in a anglican high-school for 6 years.
| quote: | | You can accuse me of whatever you like, but ignorance of the Christian faith should not be one of them. |
I was just saying that christians wouldn't beleive in evolution because it goes against what was taught in the bible. If there are some christians who DO beleive evolution.. I would #1 be suprised, #2 ask how they can justify their believe in evolution and maintain the bible's teachings as being true at the same time.
| quote: | | I don't need to prove the non-existence of souls. I'm making a negative ontological claim, and such a claim can only be disputed by making a positive ontological claim. That is, I can say "there's no such thing as unicorns" and unless someone can show me a unicorn, my point is valid. |
Alright, then I make a positive ontological claim and say there are souls. You can't proove that it's not true, so my point is valid aswell. (and if you claim there IS proof, then I'd like to see it for it's validity).
| quote: | | Oh, and calling my points "stupid" does not constitute a valid argument. |
LOL.. Just my personal opinion. ;)
| quote: | | So far as I see it, an infinite life is worthless. Why acheive something today when I have all of eternity to do it in? |
I doubt that eternity will be anything like our life here. No one knows what it would be like, but imo it wont be physical (as we live now.)
| quote: | | What value can we possibly hold in life when we know that we - and every human on the planet - cannot actually die? |
We can hold alot of value in our life.. just because we have an afterlife does not mean that we should not live this life any less fully, and of course we can die (in the physical sense).
| quote: | | Then what's the difference between "oneself" and "one's soul then"? |
that's exactly my point. Our soul is in essence 'ourself'.
Let me conclude by saying that any debating over this is pointless because neither of us will change our thoughts. You believe your thing, I believe mine, and NO MATTER WHAT, we can't change what eachother believes.
Also I just want to make an observation. It seems to me that many people who attend catholic school, or any other christian school, end up going against their religion. I for one attended a public school, and yet my beliefs remain strong. By being forced to accept religion as the truth, I think it pushes people away from it.
:crazy: :crazy: |
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| Sand Leaper |
| Props to Renegade and Chrono for great argumenting both pro and against the current issue,the way it should be done. |
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