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What happens when you die ? (pg. 8)
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| halo |
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ Chrono
| quote: | I don't need to prove the non-existence of souls. I'm making a negative ontological claim, and such a claim can only be disputed by making a positive ontological claim. That is, I can say "there's no such thing as unicorns" and unless someone can show me a unicorn, my point is valid.
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Alright, then I make a positive ontological claim and say there are souls. You can't proove that it's not true, so my point is valid aswell. (and if you claim there IS proof, then I'd like to see it for it's validity).
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I sure do hope, this is a joke, or did you really not get the point of logic?
The point of an ontological claim is to verify a theory... you state the negative of the theory an try to find exmples supporting it. As long as you cant't proof the negative the theory is true. This proof is very weak as it collapses as soon as you find something verifying the negative. But it is PROOF.
Now what you do makes no sense, as you send someone out NOT to find proof (of the existence of souls). Meanwhile there's loads of proof for the opposite of your statement as noone ever has detected a single soul. Hence no way to proof your statement as long as YOU can't present the appearence of a soul. |
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| DJ Chrono |
| quote: | Originally posted by halo
I sure do hope, this is a joke, or did you really not get the point of logic?
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Neg. I win. :D |
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| DrUg_Tit0 |
| quote: | | I don't believe in evolution for many reasons (and I am not blindly saying this, I took anthropology, and though I might not have a perfect understanding of these researched facts, I have a fair understanding of them). Firstly, I find it hard to believe that we originated from micro-organisms that evolved into neanderthals, that in turn evolved into what we currently are. How is it, that all these microorganisms evolved into different things; plants, animals, humans. Why were we the only stem of these evolved organisms that developed a high intelligence, and why did all the others stay far behind? |
Just look at evolution at this way:
1. No two creatures are equal
2. Within the same species, some creatures are stronger/smarter/better adapted than the others.
3. Children are usually similar to their parents.
I think we both agree that all three of these points are correct.
Obviously children of better adapted parents will usually be better adapted as well. Some may not be, but some may be even more than their parents. That's the point of evolution.
Also, here is a good example of evolution through selective breeding by humans. Look at all the varieties of dogs that all came from a common ancestor? Or do you say that god created all the varieties of dogs as well? Also, I am very interested in how you would explain historical evidence of people existing before 7000 years ago when you say god created earth. And most importantly, where do you think came from all the knowledge humans had by that time? They were chased out of eden where they did nothing themselves into this world, where they had to do all by themselves. Did they invent agriculture, domesticated animals and plants, discovered metal working, bronze, iron, war machines, architecture in few hundred years?
And what about archeological finds? Obviously, they don't agree with the bible, because judging by them it took much more for men to become what he is now. Did god plant all of that on the earth just to fool us? How do you explain Neanderthal bones that are so similar to us, yet different? And their age? You can say you don't believe in carbon dating, but that is not a good explanation, because it is pretty much accurate on a large scale. Are dinosaur bones also just a fake? Finally, do you truly believe in silly bible stories like Noah's arc? Do you truly believe he put 2 members of every species on his boat? What about plant species? What did he feed them? What if a lion came out and ate, say, a zebra female? Finally, what size of a boat did he have? I would like if you could explain to me those things.
Now, the evolution from microorganisms to us took billions! of years. That is billions of years, better members of the species had more offspring than weaker ones. How do you explain that we share more than 60% of our DNA with the most distant sort of bacteria to us, and about 99% of it with a chimpanzee? Is that also fake?
Now, about our large brains...Not every species stayed far behind. The Apes have pretty large brains, about a 1/3 of our own. Dolphin's brains are similarily sized to ours, some say even bigger, but they are aquatic, and without hands, so it's impossible for them to make tools and advance. Now, about the apes, they can be tought sign language, they use tools, they have about 30 different "words" in their vocal vocabulary, they have organized groups and alliances within their tribes, not much unlike us, except at a more primitive scale. Many of our facial gestures are very similar to apes. When you hear say, a razor scratch on a glass, it's an irritating sound, because it is very similar to chimpanzee cry for danger. Look at the facial similarities between man and an ape.
We are sort of evolutionary pioneers, no species yet achieved what we did now. But that doesn't mean it won't only that it will take time. But how come there are no others? Look at all the animal diversity, very few species of different branches have same intellectual capacities. A chance that species from two branches developed almost same brains, appendixes capable of manipulating objects, and were group animals, are almost infinitesimal. There were neanderthals, though, which are again a branch very close to ours, they either died away, or mixed with humans, that is yet to be determined.
Two more questions for you:
1. How do you explain fetus development, where you can see that fetus at different stages has gills, tail, and other stuff. Those are observable facts, and a young human fetus looks almost exactly like a fish, bird, or any other vertebrae fetus. Also, how do you explain people with atavism deformities, like tail, hair all over them, etc...
2. Do you really believe that out of 100+billion stars in our galaxy which is one of almost countless number of galaxies, there exists no planet with a biosphere?
Now, to believe in god as some supreme being that created all around us, like our universe is acceptable to me. But believing he did it 7000 years ago, and all of it's creation centered around earth and humans is definiteley not. Why the hell would he create all the planets and galaxies in the universe, if he would plant life on only one of them? And why bother the only ones he did create with bunch of unreal planted evidence for things that don't exist? |
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| Endlesswave |
| quote: | Originally posted by Slylee
yes i think god created man and gave him ability to create science:) |
I think God created the universe then left it to it's own devices. I also agree with:
| quote: | | Now, to believe in god as some supreme being that created all around us, like our universe is acceptable to me. But believing he did it 7000 years ago, and all of it's creation centered around earth and humans is definiteley not. Why the hell would he create all the planets and galaxies in the universe, if he would plant life on only one of them? And why bother the only ones he did create with bunch of unreal planted evidence for things that don't exist? |
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| G K Murray |
Maybe this bloke may shed some info:eek:
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| Acid Junkie |
| quote: | Originally posted by StalkerElmo
I'm christian, I pray I'm going to heaven. |
it's pointless because jesus quit saving souls
from now on it's:
^^^ been there, and believe me it's much more exciting than praying :disbelief |
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| Mosaic |
okay, I'm not gonna read through all this . you believe what you believe, and this is what I believe:
I am not religious in any nature. I don't go to church, I've barely read a page of the bible, I roll my eyes and start eating as my family says grace at dinner... you get the idea.
I believe science can explain everything, UP TO A CERTAIN POINT. After all, how can you explain science? Why does gravity pull in and not push out? Why is fire hot, not cold? Why is everything made of atoms? Who makes these rules?
I believe in a supreme being of some kind that gave birth to the REALITY. Reality created science, science created the universe, the universe created us.... but we weren't created to worship some supreme being.
I figure that has to be a "supreme being" somewhere in the Universe. Try to imagine no life anywhere in the universe. Then iagine the universe condensed into a ball before the "big bang" (if thats actually what started it), and then imagine no ball. Just absolute nothingness. An empty reality, or even no reality at all... its a mind ... you just can't picture it. So I figure there must be some reality outside the boundaries of ours, with logical explanations for our universe, their universe, and all universes.
Life after death? Well, think about this (also, please correct me in the following bit, it's been awhile since physics):
There's a set amount of atoms in the universe (because atoms are not created nor destroyed during a chemical reaction)
There's a set amount of energy in the universe (energy is not created nor destroyed, just transferred)
So, I would think there could be a set amount of "life energy" in the universe. A good example of what I am saying is the "lifestream" in Final Fantasy 7. After death, our life energy is recycled all over the universe, bringing experiences. Therefore, our life energy continuously gains experience, and life in the universe continuously betters itself.
And that's what I think... there is so much we don't know |
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| Arbiter |
Nobody knows. Just believe whatever your parents believed, if it makes you feel better. Or, if you're man enough, admit you can't know and just live your life whatever way feels right to you.
Given an infinite number of mutually exclusive beliefs you could theoretically choose to hold, for which no criteria exist to indicate that some are more probable than others, it would be prudent to consider that whatever belief one choses to hold will almost certainly be at least partially incorrect... |
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| DrUg_Tit0 |
| quote: | | There's a set amount of atoms in the universe (because atoms are not created nor destroyed during a chemical reaction) |
They are not destroyed in chemical reactions, but they are both created and destroyed in nuclear reactions.
| quote: | | There's a set amount of energy in the universe (energy is not created nor destroyed, just transferred) |
Here you are somewhat correct, but only if you look at matter as a form of energy. Therefore sum of matter and energy in the universe is always the same. That is the classical viewpoint. However, lot of recent research points out that this may not be so. Now, to not get too deep in it, i'll try to explain why. When you have empty space, it's not really empty at all. On a large scale, the space is neutral, neither gaining, nor losing matter. But, on a small scale, subatomic one, things are different. Sub-atomic particles are being created and destroyed all the time. That is possible because whenever a subatomic particle is created, due to necessary neutrality of the space, an antiparticle is created as well. These particles are never larger than quarks or electrons. A proton popping out is highly unprobable. Usually, a particle and an antiparticle are created very near to each other. They attract, and in a moment they dissolve into nothingness again. Sometimes, though, because of external forces, they do split up, and then you have two extra particles in the universe. This has been proven by scientific experiments. Implementations on a large scale, support the inflation theory as well, which is opposed to the standard big bang theory which lately has many problems. The biggest problem it has is that the universe is expanding more rapidly than it did before. So, amount of energy is always equal, but only on a medium sized scale. On a very large or very slow one, it appears that things are not quite so.
| quote: | | So, I would think there could be a set amount of "life energy" in the universe. |
First, you are confusing a set amount of energy, to a set amount of energy of specific type. There is not a set amount of any type of energy, only energy as a whole, and even that may not be so. The life energy theory is kind of interesting, but not probable. Life energy would be a mix of chemical, thermal, and maybe some other energy. Electrical also. But, first, energies can go from one form to another, so the "life energy" could easily be transfered to any other energies when you die. Where do you think bugs and worms get their energy from? From eating dead corpses. Corpses chemical energy is absorbed by other animals who use it for themselves. Thermal energy is soon released into the surrounding area. Electrical energy, well, there wasn't much of it to begin with, but it basically either leaves the body into earth or atmosphere, or some of it stays in the tissue and polarizes small portions of it, but nothing signifficantly noticable. So when you die, this energy is more or less transfered into other forms of energies. |
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| Mosaic |
thats the kind of response I was hoping for...
grade 11 physics just doesn't cut it for proving my theory...
;) |
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| halo |
| quote: | Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0
Also, I am very interested in how you would explain historical evidence of people existing before 7000 years ago when you say god created earth. And most importantly, where do you think came from all the knowledge humans had by that time? They were chased out of eden where they did nothing themselves into this world, where they had to do all by themselves. Did they invent agriculture, domesticated animals and plants, discovered metal working, bronze, iron, war machines, architecture in few hundred years?
And what about archeological finds? Obviously, they don't agree with the bible, because judging by them it took much more for men to become what he is now. Did god plant all of that on the earth just to fool us? How do you explain Neanderthal bones that are so similar to us, yet different? And their age? |
Well... if you closesly read the bible on the part of adam and eve leaving paradise, you will realise one very little oddity: Eve gives Birth to only two sons (as far as I remember), both got out to the world to get themselves some wifes and thus create the bloodstrain of mankind... read it up!
So human beings must have existed before god created adam similar to his own image.... was god just some very intelligent bio-scientist? |
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| FuzzyGreen |
You guys need to fully read the bible before saying anything (pro or con) about it. I'm talking about truely reading it from cover to cover in an educational/historical kind of way. You should never knock something you haven't tried.
"If the good lord had intended us to walk, he wouldn't have created rollerskates." |
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