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why why why????? (pg. 4)
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| DJ_Elyot |
I believe the universe is deterministically random.
No, that's not an oxymoron.
Take a snapshot of the universe at any given instant. You could theoretically predict every outcome of everything within a specific distance and time from a location if you knew enough information about the particles in the universe. I mean... we'll never know enough to make predictions (in fact we can't know enough because of the limits of uncertainty), but if you stick a few subatomic particles in space, their interaction follows a specific, predictable path, as long as the outcome you're trying to predict is within the light cone of what you know.
The point is this... events are caused by other events that preceded them. Every event in chemistry, physics, biology, and astronomy is caused by previous events.
Our brains run on an ugly, complicated system of chemical reactions and electric impluses. Therefore, even the decisions people make and the way we live our lives is truly just a function of the chemicals in our brains. The effects of this are crazy and far-reaching. Kerry could win the election because a few voters had a banana the morning of the vote, and the potassium in that banana caused a few neurons to fire, tipping the psychological decision-making process and causing them to vote for Kerry.
The initial state of the universe is of course, random... so the outcomes of things tend to be random (on the micro-microscopic level)... however, on the macroscopic level, order and determination transpires from the randomness.
We'll never know what God is... I mean... obviously you have to believe in some kind of force responsible for the creation of the universe... whether it's "God-like" or "divine" is for anyone to decide. I personally don't think religion or prayer is that useful... I mean... if it makes you feel better and enriches your life, that's great, but I choose to ignore God because God can't do anything for me in this lifetime. It's just something that we really can't comprehend in our current form... so why would I waste my time worrying about it?
Fate is IMO just a word used to try to give divine qualities to ordinary coincidences. Yes, everything occurs for a reason, but it has more to do with physics and chemistry than it does with God "wanting something to happen" or "making something happen."
I'm an atheist... meaning that I don't believe in a division between god and science. There are parts of science we don't understand, so that's the excuse for our existance. Very simple.
I don't mind people who have a religion... I just wish humanity would be a bit less gullible and ignorant and actually take the time to think of their own beliefs instead of just believing what society tells us to believe. It's no different than believing in Santa Claus... and I mean, sure, believing in Santa might enrich your life to some limited degree, but it's diappointing to see how much of a sucker people are for a lotta BS that has no proof, and they don't want to question their beliefs since they've had them since they were children.
Kids should not be taught religion until they are old enough to judge it appropriately. Teaching religion too young brainwashes the kids into believing it unconditionally. Why do the children of Hindus tend to be be Hindu and the children of Christians tend to be Christian? I think that kind of teaching makes people lose out on the opportunity to discover their beliefs for themselves. |
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| DigiNut |
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ_Elyot
Take a snapshot of the universe at any given instant. You could theoretically predict every outcome of everything within a specific distance and time from a location if you knew enough information about the particles in the universe. |
No, actually, theoretically, you couldn't. Seems like a lot of the "philosophy" I hear comes from a fundamental misunderstanding of just exactly what randomness really is.
The state of each individual particle in the universe is not definite - that's essentially the fundamental underlying principle of quantum mechanics that scientists have known for a hundred years. Everything that can be measured about particles and physical state is always expressed as a probability - a probability of being in a certain position, moving at a certain speed, etc., and the HUP states explicitly that the more you know about one property, the less you can know about another. That's not a limitation of our technology, that's a limitation of the Universe - if you could confine a particle to one single spot, then you would not be able to control or measure its speed, it could either be stopped or moving at the speed of light.
So to make a long story short, the only predictions we could ever make would be probabilities, and we already make those predictions every day.
You can't use science as a justification for concepts like fate or destiny or God. Modern science, if anything, totally contradicts those things. |
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| trancechaos |
| quote: | Originally posted by Espresso
Poor you!
very confused, eh? ;)
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YUP!! |
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| St_Andrew |
| quote: | Originally posted by DigiNut
No, actually, theoretically, you couldn't. Seems like a lot of the "philosophy" I hear comes from a fundamental misunderstanding of just exactly what randomness really is.
The state of each individual particle in the universe is not definite - that's essentially the fundamental underlying principle of quantum mechanics that scientists have known for a hundred years. Everything that can be measured about particles and physical state is always expressed as a probability - a probability of being in a certain position, moving at a certain speed, etc., and the HUP states explicitly that the more you know about one property, the less you can know about another. That's not a limitation of our technology, that's a limitation of the Universe - if you could confine a particle to one single spot, then you would not be able to control or measure its speed, it could either be stopped or moving at the speed of light.
So to make a long story short, the only predictions we could ever make would be probabilities, and we already make those predictions every day. |
well, as far as i understand it we dont know for sure that we cannot predict quantum mechanics. We do today think that it is totally random.. but, there might just be something that we dont know yet that makes it predictable. Sounds likely to me. |
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| DigiNut |
| quote: | Originally posted by St_Andrew
well, as far as i understand it we dont know for sure that we cannot predict quantum mechanics. |
Yes, we do.
The HUP is inviolable, just like the conservation of energy. Conservation of energy doesn't apply on a quantum scale but it still must hold on a macro scale, so if we discover some new branch of science beneath quantum mechanics, the HUP still must hold true for quantum mechanics.
Geez I thought they taught this in school! |
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| trancechaos |
| quote: | Originally posted by DigiNut
Yes, we do.
The HUP is inviolable, just like the conservation of energy. Conservation of energy doesn't apply on a quantum scale but it still must hold on a macro scale, so if we discover some new branch of science beneath quantum mechanics, the HUP still must hold true for quantum mechanics.
Geez I thought they taught this in school! |
im not being sarcastic but you are mayjorly intelligent dude, wish i had half the brain you do, maybe i wouldnt worry about this if i did...hahaha once again im being sincere and there is no sarcasim in that. |
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| DJ_Elyot |
| quote: | Originally posted by DigiNut
Yes, we do.
The HUP is inviolable, just like the conservation of energy. Conservation of energy doesn't apply on a quantum scale but it still must hold on a macro scale, so if we discover some new branch of science beneath quantum mechanics, the HUP still must hold true for quantum mechanics.
Geez I thought they taught this in school! |
HUP only defines what we can "know"... not what truly happens. This is a fundamental misunderstanding that is common in a lot of philosophy. The key is this... just because we don't know the position and velocity of a particle doesn't mean the ACTUAL position and velocity of that particle doesn't exist. It just means that it's impossible for us to measure it.
The debate that is still on is whether a particle's position and velocity can CHANGE abruptly for no particular reason, as long as it's within the limits of uncertainty.
Here's a similar argument. "God" could right now be sitting in the middle of a deserted forest clapping his hands. Since nobody on Earth hears him, nobody knows that he's doing it. But does it make sense for that noise to be coming from nowhere? Not according to physics. But it's still a possibility because nobody is able to disprove it.
So within the limits of uncertainty, particles COULD be randomly altering their positions and velocities miraculously, disobeying Newtonian physics, and we would never know because it's fundamentally impossible to detect it. But they also might NOT be randomly altering their positions. They might be just proceeding on their ordinary Newtonian paths... but since we can't examine these paths closely enough, we don't know whether they're curvy or straight, and we'll NEVER POSSIBLY know.
You're arguing that those paths MUST be curvy and therefore the universe is random, but your argument is based on the same assumption that god is clapping his hands in the forest right now and you can't hear it because you're not around.
Any determinist (like myself) knows this common refutation to the argument made by the quantum physicist. Unfortunately, Heisenberg proved that neither one of us will ever be proven right.
BTW... Planck's constant is REALLY REALLY REALLY SMALL... so even if what you say is true, the chance of quantum mechanics altering even something as microscopic as the decision-making within a human being is estimated to be very very small. Of course, given the vast number of interactions made in the human brain, quantum has a good chance of coming in sometime... but I'd be interested in seeing some probabilities.
There are all kinds of wacky, unprovable theories... there's one that states that our souls are mini-uncertainty drives and somehow the structure of our brain is so precariously positioned that small uncertainties end up making all the difference... like a drop of water placed on the tip of a needle.
Then of course, the religious theorists will argue that the HUP allows God to screw around with the universe without us noticing, thereby allowing divine intervention on the microscopic level.
So yes, HUP is inviolable, but randomness is only one of the possibilities that lie beneath that uncertainty. I choose to believe in deterministic randomness, others may believe in God, but in the end, we don't know. |
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| St_Andrew |
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ_Elyot
HUP only defines what we can "know"... not what truly happens. This is a fundamental misunderstanding that is common in a lot of philosophy. The key is this... just because we don't know the position and velocity of a particle doesn't mean the ACTUAL position and velocity of that particle doesn't exist. It just means that it's impossible for us to measure it.
The debate that is still on is whether a particle's position and velocity can CHANGE abruptly for no particular reason, as long as it's within the limits of uncertainty.
Here's a similar argument. "God" could right now be sitting in the middle of a deserted forest clapping his hands. Since nobody on Earth hears him, nobody knows that he's doing it. But does it make sense for that noise to be coming from nowhere? Not according to physics. But it's still a possibility because nobody is able to disprove it.
So within the limits of uncertainty, particles COULD be randomly altering their positions and velocities miraculously, disobeying Newtonian physics, and we would never know because it's fundamentally impossible to detect it. But they also might NOT be randomly altering their positions. They might be just proceeding on their ordinary Newtonian paths... but since we can't examine these paths closely enough, we don't know whether they're curvy or straight, and we'll NEVER POSSIBLY know.
You're arguing that those paths MUST be curvy and therefore the universe is random, but your argument is based on the same assumption that god is clapping his hands in the forest right now and you can't hear it because you're not around.
Any determinist (like myself) knows this common refutation to the argument made by the quantum physicist. Unfortunately, Heisenberg proved that neither one of us will ever be proven right.
BTW... Planck's constant is REALLY REALLY REALLY SMALL... so even if what you say is true, the chance of quantum mechanics altering even something as microscopic as the decision-making within a human being is estimated to be very very small. Of course, given the vast number of interactions made in the human brain, quantum has a good chance of coming in sometime... but I'd be interested in seeing some probabilities.
There are all kinds of wacky, unprovable theories... there's one that states that our souls are mini-uncertainty drives and somehow the structure of our brain is so precariously positioned that small uncertainties end up making all the difference... like a drop of water placed on the tip of a needle.
Then of course, the religious theorists will argue that the HUP allows God to screw around with the universe without us noticing, thereby allowing divine intervention on the microscopic level.
So yes, HUP is inviolable, but randomness is only one of the possibilities that lie beneath that uncertainty. I choose to believe in deterministic randomness, others may believe in God, but in the end, we don't know. |
Nice post :D couldn't have wrote it better myself :p:p |
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| Rocco |
i know the answer to all those questions.
i come from my dad and my mom.
i'm here because i am.
I'm going wherever i want to go, whenever i feel like going.
USE the razor.. Accom's razor... "usually the simplest answer is the best" so life is as simple or complicated as u make it to be. |
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| DigiNut |
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ_Elyot
HUP only defines what we can "know"... not what truly happens. This is a fundamental misunderstanding that is common in a lot of philosophy. The key is this... just because we don't know the position and velocity of a particle doesn't mean the ACTUAL position and velocity of that particle doesn't exist. It just means that it's impossible for us to measure it. |
Dear lord man, if people want to believe in God then that's fine, but you're posting a theory based on an argument that's just plain wrong.
The HUP is NOT just related to what we can "know". Did you study quantum mechanics? Everything is based on probability distribution functions, and those functions are interrelated - as one function becomes more and more bounded, another function becomes more and more unbounded. The HUP is so often misinterpreted as being "just" related to "measurement", but its existence isn't due to our measuring ability, it's due to fundamental properties of matter and energy!
We're not talking about just not knowing where a particle is or how fast it's moving. We're talking about a particle that is actually not moving at any definite speed, and not located in any definite position. It integrates perfectly into wave-particle duality because the distribution functions are all wave functions. Strictly speaking, the particles don't actually exist at all - the particle "theory" is just one way of defining a quantum state.
Oh and as for Planck's constant being "small" - what is that supposed to mean!? Small compared to WHAT? You can't place qualitative adjectives on scientific CONSTANTS! Even if you could somehow define it as "small", haven't you ever heard of Chaos Theory?
I'm sorry but you're absolutely wrong here. I would never try to tell someone what religion to believe in, but this "science" you're posting is simply incorrect. We CAN'T know an entire quantum state, and that will be true no matter how advanced our science and technology gets.
| quote: | | im not being sarcastic but you are mayjorly intelligent dude, wish i had half the brain you do, maybe i wouldnt worry about this if i did...hahaha once again im being sincere and there is no sarcasim in that. |
Thanks, though I wish I had half the brain I did, I used to worry about this stuff all the time. :p Learning to accept what's in front of us is more of a personal and emotional discovery than an intellectual one. We can reason and rationalize about the universe all we want, but ultimately what it comes down to is that you either go with the flow or go against it! So go with it, you don't have to swim as hard! :)
P.S. Rocco, that's Occam's razor. :p |
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| voodoochild |
| quote: | Originally posted by dance2dabeat
All those questions are nothing but a huge mind ! So no I try not to have those moments. Reminds me of the way my ex boyfriend thinks. Honestly, who gives a . Live your life and do what makes you happy. If faith makes you a good person than keep believing. If travelling makes you happy, save cash and do it. If partying makes you happy......then don't ever stop dancing! |
AMEN to that my friend!!! I am living proof to this....its all about choices, too bad it took me this long to learn this Cadbury secret..... |
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