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Serious Problems are Afoot in New Orleans (pg. 18)
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| Yoepus |
| quote: | Originally posted by Fir3start3r
Interesting.
So I guess a couple of questions then; Can the president order martial law just for "a" State? Do he have the authority? |
Yes and yes.
Moving on, I read this interesting artcile in NY Post, thought I would share it with you all:
| quote: |
KATRINA: THE LOCAL ANGLE
Wed Sep 7, 6:00 AM ET
President Bush and congressional leaders yesterday pledged probes into the public response to Hurricane Katrina — a response that was, to be blunt, tragic.
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But as those probes get under way, a key point to remember is this: In emergencies like Katrina, state and local officials, more than anyone, are in charge.
And in preparing for — and responding to — the storm, New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin and Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Blanco blew it. Big time.
"It is difficult to understand the lack of preparedness and the ineffective initial response to a disaster that had been predicted for years and for which specific, dire warning had been given for days," said Sen. Susan Collins (news, bio, voting record) (R-Maine).
As Bob Williams, an ex-state lawmaker whose district was struck by Mount St. Helens in '80, wrote in The Wall Street Journal: "The primary responsibility for dealing with emergencies does not belong to the federal government. It belongs to local and state officials who are charged by law with the management of the crucial first response to disasters."
Blanco and Nagin have been pointing fingers in every direction save their own.
That's understandable, of course. It must be tough coming to terms with guilt of that magnitude — and it's not going to get any easier.
The area apparently had detailed, albeit seriously flawed, local evacuation plans. In the event, though, the flaws mattered little — because the plans were discarded even as Katrina roared toward the Big Easy.
Many of the city's poor couldn't escape the floods; those who did were left to face armed gangs.
Not that the feds' response was perfect, of course. Legitimate questions are being raised about the wisdom of subordinating FEMA within the Department of
Homeland Security — and whether DHS, created after 9/11, focuses on terrorist attacks at the expense of natural calamities.
Nonetheless, local officials will always be the "first responders" during local disasters, and a fair review of Blanco and Nagin's response to Katrina is unlikely to view them kindly.
Nagin's profane outburst at Washington in general, and President Bush in particular, rings very hollow in light of the fact that he ordered evacuees to the Superdome — where there was no water, no food and no emergency medical supplies — and left the city's school-bus fleet lined up bumper-to-bumper to drown in the flood waters.
All of that, and more, will come out in a fair fact-finding process.
A final note about that process: The value of such probes will depend greatly on their independence and seriousness; if the 9/11 Commission's partisan, self-promotional investigation is any guide, don't expect much.
And that's a shame. Because anything that can be learned to protect folks from the next Katrina is surely worth learning.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nypost/2005...nathelocalangle
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I believe the article makes a great number of points. One of which Mr. Opus was blasting about in another thread on this issue.. where will the Mayor get 600 buses on short notice. Why not use school buses and city public transport buses?... Afterall the city is evacuating schools are closed and people don't need to get to work, they could at least be saved. |
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| Fir3start3r |
| quote: | Originally posted by Yoepus
Yes and yes.
Moving on, I read this interesting artcile in NY Post, thought I would share it with you all:
I believe the article makes a great number of points. One of which Mr. Opus was blasting about in another thread on this issue.. where will the Mayor get 600 buses on short notice. Why not use school buses and city public transport buses?... Afterall the city is evacuating schools are closed and people don't need to get to work, they could at least be saved. |
The kicker is, they only had a test of their, "Evacuation Plan", 13 months earlier and they knew they had problems. :mad:
Someone want to explain to the families of the deceased why it takes 13 months not to fix this??
No worries though, the suggested "Katrina Commission" (once that gets off the ground) will have hard answers. I'm going to go out on a limb and predict that the Bush-bashers aren't going to be very happy with the results... |
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| smokeape |
Ok, amateurs move out and military takes over New Orleans now.
They could've come in sooner, but were not ordered to do so.
Law and Order, and task of policing dead bodies begin...
:mad:
[[[smoke]]] |
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| Shakka |
| quote: | Originally posted by kush paintings
He declared war, why can't he declare martial law. |
The President doesn't have the power to declare war. That power rests with the Congress. |
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| St_Andrew |
| What the hell is up with the government forceing ppl to leave btw? Thats ing insane, if someone still want to stay there and die, why not let them? |
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| ogvh5150 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Yoepus
Actually, Wrong.
New Orleans was not declared under martial law. It is illegal for the state of Lousiana to delcare martial law according to their state constitution.
Furthermore if martial law is declared by the govenor it is that state govenor which has authority not the federal government (unless the US President declares martial law). |
Actually you're the one who's wrong:
September 7, 2005
Authorities Increase Pressure on Holdouts in New Orleans
By ALEX BERENSON
and CHRISTINE HAUSER
NEW ORLEANS, Sept. 7 - After days of pleading with residents to leave this partly destroyed city, local officials said today that they would begin forced evacuations of all residents, including people living in dry and undamaged homes.
The announcement came as some sections of the city took small steps toward recovery, a week after Hurricane Katrina struck, causing levees to burst and flooding large swaths of the city. Today, residents cleaned debris from streets and boarded up abandoned houses in some neighborhoods, while other people left voluntarily after being reached by police officers and soldiers.
As many as 10,000 people remain in the city, and some residents said they would not comply with official orders to leave their homes - which could produce ugly confrontations with police officers or soldiers.
But city officials said today that the risk of fire and disease had left them with no choice but to use force, if necessary, to evacuate anyone who resisted leaving. Police officials did not give a timetable for the forced evacuations, but said Louisiana law gives Mayor C. Ray Nagin the authority to declare martial law and order the evacuation. "There's a martial law declaration in place that gives us legal authority for mandatory evacuations," said the superintendent of police, P. Edwin Compass III, said at a news conference today. "We'll use the minimum amount of force necessary."
Authorities Increase Pressure on Holdouts in New Orleans
There is in effect a de facto martial law no matter what sugar coated words you or anyone else uses. |
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| Yoepus |
| quote: | Originally posted by ogvh5150
, but said Louisiana law gives Mayor C. Ray Nagin the authority to declare martial law and order the evacuation. "There's a martial law declaration in place that gives us legal authority for mandatory evacuations," said the superintendent of police, P. Edwin Compass III, said at a news conference today. "We'll use the minimum amount of force necessary."
Authorities Increase Pressure on Holdouts in New Orleans[/FONT]
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Louisiana law does not give a Mayor the ability to declare martial law, therefore what superintendent of polic, P. EdwinCompass III told the NY Times is either a lie or simply his misinformation on the subject. And the NY Times reportors are similarly stupid for not correcting the legality/reality of what is happening in Lousiana.
This is just one more example of what we all know too well: the press sucks.
From The Times-Picayune:
| quote: |
Martial law clarified
The state Attorney General's office on Tuesday sought to clarify reports in some media that "martial law' has been declared in parts of storm-ravaged southeast Louisiana, saying no such term exists in Louisiana law.
But even though no martial law exists, Gov. Kathleen Blanco's declaration of a state of emergency gives authorities widespread latitude to suspend civil liberties as they try to restore order and bring victims to safety. Under the Louisiana Homeland Security and Emergency Assistance and Disaster Act of 1993, the governor and, in some cases, chief parish officials, have the right to commandeer or utilize any private property if necessary to cope with the emergency.
Authorities may also suspend any statute related to the conduct of official business, or any rule issued by a state agency, if complying would "prevent, hinder or delay necessary action'' to mitigate the emergency.
It also gives authority the right to compel evacuations, suspend alcohol and weapons sales and make provisions for the availability and use of temporary emergency housing.
The law gives mayors similar authority, except they do not have the right to commandeer private property or make provisions for emergency housing, according to a background brief prepared by the state Attorney General's office.
http://www.nola.com/newslogs/breaki..._08.html#075262
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There you have it only Parish and Govenor of Lousiana can declare a state of emergency. A mayor does not have state of emergency powers, but more limited powers.
| quote: |
There is in effect a de facto martial law no matter what sugar coated words you or anyone else uses. |
Educate yourself (from Slate):
| quote: |
What Is Martial Law?
And is New Orleans under it?
By Keelin McDonell
Posted Friday, Sept. 2, 2005, at 2:04 PM PT
Military presence? Yes. Martial law? No.
On Tuesday reports began circulating that New Orleans officials had put the flood-ravaged city under martial law. The attorney general's office of Louisiana quickly issued a denial. Confusion persisted, however, after White House press secretary Scott McClellan told a group of journalists on Wednesday that "martial law has been declared in Mississippi and Louisiana." Yesterday National Guard Lt. Gen H. Steven Blum sought to set the record straight, saying, "This is not, as it has been erroneously reported, martial law." What is martial law? And who can declare it?
Martial law occurs when the military assumes police powers because local authorities and courts aren't functioning. Although the president usually imposes martial law, federal regulation allows for a "local commander" to do so "on the spot, if the circumstances demand immediate action." Federal armed forces are expected to relinquish these powers as soon as the local government is once again operable. During martial law, the military may arrest and try civilians, seize private property, and institute curfews, among other emergency powers.
In practice, however, martial law has been all but barred since the late 19th century. During the Civil War, President Lincoln suspended habeas corpus and set up military courts in several states in the South and Midwest. Many at the time felt that Lincoln had superseded his authority, and in 1878 Congress passed the Posse Comitatus Act, which forbids the military from performing civilian law enforcement without congressional approval.
Continue Article
The Posse Comitatus Act effectively limited the president's power to declare martial law, but it did not entirely end it. After the bombing of Pearl Harbor in 1941, the governor of Hawaii called for martial law. President Roosevelt approved the motion, and the islands remained under military authority until October of 1944.
Additionally, governors can still request that the president immediately dispatch federal troops to assist police during emergencies. This happened during two notable instances of rioting in recent history—at the 1968 Democratic Convention in Chicago and after the verdict was handed down in the Rodney King trial in Los Angeles in 1992. Neither instance constituted martial law (or violated Posse Comitatus) since federal troops were supporting and not supplanting local leaders.
During the 1987 Iran-Contra scandal, it was revealed that Oliver North had helped FEMA draft plans to overrule Posse Comitatus and impose martial rule if a major instance of civil unrest occurred. More recently, civil libertarians have worried that the military may become the de facto enforcer of law if the United States is attacked.
The Katrina relief effort includes military assistance, but it is not martial law. National Guard units are acting under the direction of governors, and federal troops are providing humanitarian relief. Neither of these violates Posse Comitatus. While martial law has not been imposed, a state of emergency has been declared in Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, and Florida, signaling that some civil liberties, such as the right to congregate, may be limited because of extreme conditions.
http://slate.msn.com/id/2125584/nav/tap1/
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| ogvh5150 |
Taken from:
Louisiana Legislature Search
Read carefully, you can see by the use of the word OR and how that effects the law.
§2033. Declaration of emergency
A. Notwithstanding any other provisions of this Subtitle, upon receipt of evidence that there is an incident occurring which is of such magnitude as to require immediate action to prevent irreparable damage to the environment or a serious threat to life or safety based on recognized criteria or standards or both, the secretary may declare that an emergency exists.
B. Upon declaration of an emergency, the secretary shall direct the attorney general to take such legal action as the secretary deems necessary. If the secretary directs the attorney general to take such legal action upon declaration of an emergency as the secretary deems necessary, and the attorney general declines to take such action or does not respond to the secretary's request within ten days of such request and agree to take such requested action, an attorney from the department may, with the concurrence of the attorney general, take such action.
§766. Declaration of a state of public health emergency
A. Declaration.
A state of public health emergency may be declared by executive order or proclamation of the governor, following consultation with the public health authority, if he finds a public health emergency as defined in R.S. 29:762 has occurred or the threat thereof is imminent.
B. Content of declaration.
A state of public health emergency shall be declared by an executive order or proclamation that indicates the nature of the public health emergency, the area or areas which are or may be affected, and the conditions which have brought it about or which make possible the termination of the state of disaster or emergency. An executive order or proclamation shall be disseminated promptly by means reasonably calculated to bring its contents to the attention of the general public and, unless the circumstances attendant upon the public health emergency prevent or impede it, the executive order or proclamation shall be promptly filed with the Military Department, state of Louisiana, office of homeland security and emergency preparedness, Department of Health and Hospitals, office of public health, and the secretary of state.
C. Effect of the declaration.
The declaration of a state of public health emergency by the governor shall activate the state's emergency response and recovery program under the command of the director of the state office of homeland security and emergency preparedness.
D. Emergency powers.
During a state of public health emergency, in addition to any powers conferred upon the governor by law, he may do any or all of the following:
(1) Suspend the provisions of any regulatory statute prescribing procedures for the conducting of state business, or the orders, rules, or regulations of any state agency, if strict compliance with the provisions of any statute, order, rule, or regulation would in any way prevent, hinder, or delay necessary action in coping with the emergency.
(2) Utilize all available resources of the state government and of each political subdivision of the state as reasonably necessary to cope with the disaster or emergency.
(3) Transfer the direction, personnel, or functions of state departments and agencies or units thereof for the purpose of performing or facilitating emergency services.
(4) Subject to any applicable requirements for compensation, commandeer or utilize any private property if he finds this necessary to cope with the disaster or emergency.
(5) Direct and compel the evacuation of all or part of the population from any stricken or threatened area within the state if he deems this action necessary for the preservation of life or other disaster mitigation, response or recovery.
(6) Prescribe routes, modes of transportation, and destination in connection with evacuation.
(7) Control ingress and egress to and from a disaster area, the movement of persons within the area, and the occupancy of premises therein.
(8) Suspend or limit the sale, dispensing, or transportation of alcoholic beverages, firearms, explosives, and combustibles.
(9) Make provision for the availability and use of temporary emergency housing.
E. Coordination.
The office of homeland security and emergency preparedness, through consultation with the secretary of the Department of Health and Hospitals, shall coordinate all matters pertaining to the public health emergency response of the state. The office of homeland security and emergency preparedness, through consultation with the secretary of the Department of Health and Hospitals, shall have primary jurisdiction, responsibility and authority for:
(1) Planning and executing public health emergency assessment, mitigation, preparedness response, and recovery for the state.
(2) Coordinating public health emergency response between the state and local authorities.
(3) Collaborating with relevant federal government authorities, elected officials of other states, private organizations or companies.
(4) Coordinating recovery operations and mitigation initiatives subsequent to public health emergencies.
(5) Organizing public information activities regarding public health emergency response operations.
F. Identification.
(1) After the declaration of a state of public health emergency, special identification for all public health personnel working during the emergency shall be issued as soon as possible.
(2) The identification shall indicate the authority of the bearer to exercise public health functions and emergency powers during the state of public health emergency.
(3) Public health personnel shall wear the identification in plain view.
Acts 2003, No. 1206, §1.
Like I said before not you or anyone else can sugarcoat martial law with words like "state of emergency" or "public health emergency", etc. I am sure if you read more about these laws you will find more valuable information. Like the use of the word OR. Like in "A state of public health emergency may be declared by executive order or proclamation of the governor"
It is what it is: de facto martial law brought on by a federal coup.
I didn't make this up the laws are there for everyone to read. Read the Executive Orders signed by presidents past and see how those make you feel all warm and fuzzy inside. |
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| Aiwendil |
| "Afoot"? Who says that anyway? I think the last time I heard that word used was in an old episode of Inspector Gadget. |
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| Shakka |
| quote: | Originally posted by Aiwendil
"Afoot"? Who says that anyway? I think the last time I heard that word used was in an old episode of Inspector Gadget. |
When I was at Home Depot last week, I told the guy I needed afoot of rope. He told me he'd have to space it out. N'yuk n'yuk. I kill me. |
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| josh4 |
| quote: | Fewer Bodies Than Expected Found in Sweeps
By DON BABWIN, Associated Press Writer 7 minutes ago
Authorities said Friday that their first systematic sweep of the city found far fewer bodies than expected, suggesting that the death toll may not be the catastrophic 10,000 feared.
"I think there's some encouragement in what we've found in the initial sweeps that some of the catastrophic deaths that some people predicted may not have occurred," said Terry Ebbert, New Orleans homeland security chief.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/hurrican...zkxBHNlYwN0bQ--
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yeah. i was having my doubts when the death toll was lingering around 300 for a while ... "but its going to sky rocket any time now, really!"
As for the blame game, I blame idiocy. This happened because our leaders are ing idiots. I already knew Bush was an idiot. After some things others have said like Chertoff calling Louisiana a city, Nagin is not only stupid but incompetent and a he didnt even TRY before he started crying and calling for mommy, amoung others. |
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| NeoPhono |
| quote: | Originally posted by josh4
yeah. i was having my doubts when the death toll was lingering around 300 for a while ... "but its going to sky rocket any time now, really!"
As for the blame game, I blame idiocy. This happened because our leaders are ing idiots. I already knew Bush was an idiot. After some things others have said like Chertoff calling Louisiana a city, Nagin is not only stupid but incompetent and a he didnt even TRY before he started crying and calling for mommy, amoung others. |
+1
This is a systemic problem. Fault lies from the top to the bottom with this one, although I do think our expectations when it comes to the aftermath of this tragedy are a bit high. I can only hope that there will be accountability on all levels and not just this idiotic blame game where people are desperately searching for someone else to put their incompetancy on. |
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