|
Qana (pg. 5)
|
View this Thread in Original format
| CHRles |
LiquidX you're the one who doesn't seem to understand neither the US nor other countries.
The US is a pluralistic society, and has tried very hard to understand these other cultures you speak of, b/c many people from those other parts of the world migrate to the US.
You're the one who doesnt seem to understand that it was radical moslims who declared war on the West, who put blame on it for all their problems, without taking accountability to their own actions.
It was students in Iran, not America, who stormed the US embassy in Tehran, and took hostage over 60 people for over a year. Why? B/c they were American, and America at the time had let the Shah enter the United States to be treated for cancer. Whats worse is the Iranian leadership (read; Khomeini) let these students get away with it.
I don't remember US students storming the Iranian embassy, taking the people inside of it as hostages, burning Iranian flags, and I don't remember them shouting "death to Iran". I also don't remember poor people in America blaming other countries 24/7 for their problems.
BTW, This was back in 1979, and since then the fanatics who you want the US government so badly to understand have only gotten worse.
It was moslim fanatics who flew planes into the WTC killing thousands of people of all backgrounds, races, and cultures, including moderate moslims not the other way around.
So please, don't give me your crap about how this is in actuality America's fault.
Do you drink? Have you had sex before you were married? Have you ever watched porn? Or do you have a problem with strip clubs?
Do you prey? often? or have you ever had a day when you haven't preyed at all? Do you have a problem with treating women as your equal?
See moslim fanatics right now are sadly at the same point where Christian fanatics were hundreds of years ago during the crusades. They want the whole world to adapt to their way of thinking, and to avoid what they define as a "sinful lifestyle". While Christianity has become more and more enlightened over the years, sadly it seems a growing segment of the Moslim population has taken a turn in the other direction.
This is what you're fighting, and let's be clear - the West is fighting a war for its right to live a personal belief lifestyle. The general consensus in the west is that we know in our hearts if we're good people, and we try to respect other people's train of thought and religion so long as they don't force it on us.
These other societies blame the West, especially America, for western culture creeping into their society. From Hollywood movies, to Coca Cola commercials. It wasn't forced on them - it was just something that became more and more popular, and more of the norm over time. They're upset that part of their own people buy into so-called "western values", and believe that in order to change that they have to fight a "holy war" with the West. In the process, they have no problem sacrificing many of their own people as a way to teach the West a lesson. |
|
|
| Yoepus |
| quote: | Originally posted by MisterOpus1
|
Stop thread-jacking! :mad:
:p |
|
|
| George Smiley |
| quote: | Originally posted by CHRles
It was students in Iran, not America, who stormed the US embassy in Tehran, and took hostage over 60 people for over a year. Why? B/c they were American, and America at the time had let the Shah enter the United States to be treated for cancer. Whats worse is the Iranian leadership (read; Khomeini) let these students get away with it.
I don't remember US students storming the Iranian embassy, taking the people inside of it as hostages, burning Iranian flags, and I don't remember them shouting "death to Iran". I also don't remember poor people in America blaming other countries 24/7 for their problems. |
Unlike today?
| quote: | | BTW, This was back in 1979, and since then the fanatics who you want the US government so badly to understand have only gotten worse. |
Well seeing that we are categorising Sunni and Shia Islamists together, I didn't see America complaining during the Afghanistan war when they aided these fanatics and gave them the foundations on which they base their strength today
| quote: | It was moslim fanatics who flew planes into the WTC killing thousands of people of all backgrounds, races, and cultures, including moderate moslims not the other way around.
So please, don't give me your crap about how this is in actuality America's fault. |
Tony Blair on the anniversary of the July 7th London Tube bombings made reference to (British) Muslim's "false greviances" with the West. That comment sparked a bit of a controversy as Muslims were angered that he dismissed their greviances as "false" and other commentators made the point that whether their greviances were false or not was irrelevant as they had greviances and they need addressing or these attacks will continue. I think the same points can be made towards your comment. Maybe America had done something to piss the 9/11 hijackers off. Or maybe they hadn't. What is important is that whatever the motivations for these terrorists, they need addressing to prevent such attacks in the future. Same goes for any nation addressing a terrorist threat (in this case Israel). Those greviances need addressing to prevent future attacks and aggressive military action only reinforces those greviences and makes future attacks more likely, not less likely as is the aim.
| quote: | Do you drink? Have you had sex before you were married? Have you ever watched porn? Or do you have a problem with strip clubs?
Do you prey? often? or have you ever had a day when you haven't preyed at all? Do you have a problem with treating women as your equal? |
Half the American population would have a problem with the issues you just mentioned. Don't forget religious intensity in America is just has high as in the Middle East for a large section of the population.
| quote: | | See moslim fanatics right now are sadly at the same point where Christian fanatics were hundreds of years ago during the crusades. They want the whole world to adapt to their way of thinking, and to avoid what they define as a "sinful lifestyle". While Christianity has become more and more enlightened over the years, sadly it seems a growing segment of the Moslim population has taken a turn in the other direction. |
Again, a significant amount of American Christians would suggest otherwise. However, you are right that Christians (thanks to Protestantism) has broken away fom the dogma of the Catholic Church and is more "enlightened". However, imo, that has nothing to do with the fundamentals of the actual religion but the time and place Christianity is practiced - in rich Western nations - and I say Christianity has not become more enlightened, rather people in the West have become less Christian. Maybe we would see the same in the Muslim Middle East if they had a similar political system to us and their wealth/standards of living were the same (altho America is the exception to the rule here with all their religious fanatics)
| quote: | This is what you're fighting, and let's be clear - the West is fighting a war for its right to live a personal belief lifestyle. The general consensus in the west is that we know in our hearts if we're good people, and we try to respect other people's train of thought and religion so long as they don't force it on us.
These other societies blame the West, especially America, for western culture creeping into their society. From Hollywood movies, to Coca Cola commercials. It wasn't forced on them - it was just something that became more and more popular, and more of the norm over time. They're upset that part of their own people buy into so-called "western values", and believe that in order to change that they have to fight a "holy war" with the West. In the process, they have no problem sacrificing many of their own people as a way to teach the West a lesson. |
What you say above is correct, but I don't think these terrorists attack the West because they want to destroy our way of life (our values etc) otherwise they would have done that from the start (not that I'm saying they don't hate our way of life). I don't think they have any problem with us living in sin. I think the West is attacked for more simple "traditional" terrorist reasons - to achieve a political aim (take 9/11 for example, imo that was to send a message to America to get out of Saudi Arabia and stop funding Israel) |
|
|
| George Smiley |
Interesting but don't forget this is Lebanon ;) |
|
|
| qussay |
@ danish prophet of doom .....:rolleyes:
even if the death toll is 10 from the Qana bombing ,look at what israel is doing for 3 kidnapped soldiers....... or wait , is that real reason ????
before you start making all those allegations , and assumptions about arabs and muslims in general , i suggest you take a minute, and think that since you DONT live even close to the region, and you rely on limited ( imo ) sources of informtation from the media, you dont know half of whats going on, really . and like the other discussion we had , were you tried to bring points regarding :
1. Qandah issue in Jordan
2. The Government officials against zarqawi's death
3. The honor killing laws in Jordan
and in the end , you discovered NEW information ,you were not aware of , which proved my point .
Arabs and muslims looking up to hizbollah and hamas , regardless of what you think about it ! where is the hypocracy , stupidity , and racism there ? Is it wrong , to stand up to what we believe in ?
If you are still thinking about the other countries , let me tell you this , do you know how many iraqis jordan took in after the war , and gave them citizenships ? Did you hear about all the events, seminars , summits , and projects held weekly in jordan to help iraq in several areas? such as rebuild iraq , the iraqi religions summit , the joined muslims of iraq summit, or iraqna ( our iraq in arabic ) ? didnt think so.
do you know the Amman islam message ? which through it , several seminars are held discussing how to spread the unified, peaceful message of islam to other countrie ; including sudan ?
Did you hear , about the sudan embassies protest , where sudn embassies throughout the middle east held joint protests , which included other emabassies and individuals , to condemn the killings in sudan?
and thats besides all the campaigns to raise money for unforunate people throughout the middle east and the world.
even our parties , have themes now , and donate portions of their profit , to peace keeping organizations. example
i can go on for days talking about such events , but since the majority of people in the middle east, cant afford internet connections , you wont find links to such events , or there are but i cant find them , and the media doesnt cover such events...so it doesnt make it any easier to find any !
The US will create scenarios to keep its presence in the area , we all agree on that , oil is whats important here. and yes, our leaders are supported by the US , its a mutual benefit deal , the US will dictate how to rule the country, in return , the leader will keep his job. and in countries where monarchs actually rule , its very difficult to influence the leadership!
so before you accuse any of us of anything , being in denmark, you have NO CLUE whats going on in this part of the world...
To other people , who dont have one track minds , and who dont have their decisions already made up for them , i am trying to give you insight to whats going on here in the middle east , you can take it , leave it , or even deny it , its totally up to you !
i am done with this post , going to go back to my racist , and hypocritical country now..... |
|
|
| CHRles |
GeorgeSmiley, I understand what you're saying about Afghanistan in the 80s, and even the Iran-Iraq war back then.
Back then the West was worried, based on what had happened in previous decades, that communism would gain even more power throughout the world. That is why some "guerilla organizations" and dictators who are today seen as major threat were once semi-backed by the West. Well, back then the West had more immediate threats to worry about.
While the Soviet Union has disbanded and America and Russia are on much friendlier terms these days, and while the US has become close with the other major communist power, China, it seems the problem of terrorism has only increased. Terrorism in the name of religion and ultra-conservative values. I think that, regardless of whether or not at this point in time there was a sovereign Jewish state backed by the West, this clash between religions and cultures would be taking place.
BTW, even within Israel, you have the more secular Jews and the more religious/orthodox ones. Most Arabs don't realize this, but even if Israel acheives a true peace with all of its neighbors it would still have to deal with its own problem of religious verrsus secular ideologies. The same seems to be true in America where you have a growing gap between the liberal left, and the conservative right.
Is the whole world perhaps becoming less "moderate" and moving into two sub-camps? :conf: |
|
|
| CHRles |
| quote: | Originally posted by qussay
@ danish prophet of doom .....:rolleyes:
even if the death toll is 10 from the Qana bombing ,look at what israel is doing for 3 kidnapped soldiers....... or wait , is that real reason ???? |
Well, it's one of the reasons. It's also b/c the Hizbollah had repeatedly fired on northern Israel after 2000, after Israel pulled out of Southern Lebanon. It's also b/c Israeli intelligence had noticed that the Hizbollah's arsenal kept on building up rather then the offical Lebanese army, which has remained weak. Finally, it's b/c Israel is VERY worried about what might happened at this time next year if Iran gets its hands on nuclear weapons, and "share the wealth" with the Hizbollah.
I do however also understand what King Abdullah of Jordan is warning against - that in a few years there might be a Hizbollah or a Hamas forming in moderate Arab countries like Jordan, if the fighting doesn't stop. I don't think though that puts Israel at a tough spot - fighting the Hizbollah to avoid a nuclear holocaust, or possibly allowing more terrosit organizations to form in the coming years.
What you said about Jordan as far ass Iraq goes is true - Jordan has showed compassion towards all types of Iraquis who have been fleeing Iraq in recent years. |
|
|
| LiquidX |
| quote: | Originally posted by CHRles
LiquidX you're the one who doesn't seem to understand neither the US nor other countries.
The US is a pluralistic society, and has tried very hard to understand these other cultures you speak of, b/c many people from those other parts of the world migrate to the US. |
What? mm Okay, lets leave it this way. The US did a good job understanding the culture of Iraq and it's internal religious group, I guess they thought everyone would just get along with a democratic government .
| quote: | | You're the one who doesnt seem to understand that it was radical moslims who declared war on the West, who put blame on it for all their problems, without taking accountability to their own actions. |
Have you ever looked back on why this happened? Have you ever heard Bin Laden's speeches or middle eastern leaders and why they hate the US so much??.. I mean, its not like I side with them or anything. I do not follow their culture nor I aliniate with them for that matter, IM a westerner so why should I, but its humane to see and learn where they are coming from. By the US invading the Middle East and/or getting involved into backstabing ( when dealing with Iran and Iraq in the 80's for example.. that was some major interest backstabing going on ) .. those are just some of the fews. And I think its a great moment to bring the current Lebanese-Israeli conflict.. US helping most of the Middle east enemy mmmmm dont look good, read a couple of the news, you'll get a catch at what IM saying.
| quote: | It was students in Iran, not America, who stormed the US embassy in Tehran, and took hostage over 60 people for over a year. Why? B/c they were American, and America at the time had let the Shah enter the United States to be treated for cancer. Whats worse is the Iranian leadership (read; Khomeini) let these students get away with it.
[QUOTE]I don't remember US students storming the Iranian embassy, taking the people inside of it as hostages, burning Iranian flags, and I don't remember them shouting "death to Iran". I also don't remember poor people in America blaming other countries 24/7 for their problems.
BTW, This was back in 1979, and since then the fanatics who you want the US government so badly to understand have only gotten worse. |
No but I remember American people bashing France for not supporting the US for not going to war and any other country that believed the same for that matter.
And to the incident that you are refering to, I'll have to look into it. I mean Iraq vs. Iran ... there's probably some dots connected to it no?
| quote: | It was moslim fanatics who flew planes into the WTC killing thousands of people of all backgrounds, races, and cultures, including moderate moslims not the other way around.
So please, don't give me your crap about how this is in actuality America's fault. |
Mmm well they are against the American imperialism and ideology of the US wanting to take over the riches of the Middle east ( OIL ).. I think the US has done a good job at that in Iraq, perhaps it has given those extreme muslims the reason, in other words, the US has only fueled the extremist and has fueled the muslim world, bringing more extremists and creating more terrorists.
| quote: | Do you drink? Have you had sex before you were married? Have you ever watched porn? Or do you have a problem with strip clubs?
Do you prey? often? or have you ever had a day when you haven't preyed at all? Do you have a problem with treating women as your equal? |
Well haven't you looked at the right wing republicans stand?? Wasn't the religious right that boosted Bush into the second term office ?? .. gay marriage, stem cell research, thats what matter, not the crappy economy or deaths in Iraq or the war and what-not. That tells a lot dont you think ? .. I dont understand what your trying to get by asking if I drink or pray though.
| quote: | | See moslim fanatics right now are sadly at the same point where Christian fanatics were hundreds of years ago during the crusades. They want the whole world to adapt to their way of thinking, and to avoid what they define as a "sinful lifestyle". While Christianity has become more and more enlightened over the years, sadly it seems a growing segment of the Moslim population has taken a turn in the other direction. |
I think there's fanatics everywhere. Difference is that Muslims are dedicated, and there's just too many extremists, thats their culture, and we've tried to get into it, thats the problem.
| quote: | This is what you're fighting, and let's be clear - the West is fighting a war for its right to live a personal belief lifestyle. The general consensus in the west is that we know in our hearts if we're good people, and we try to respect other people's train of thought and religion so long as they don't force it on us.
These other societies blame the West, especially America, for western culture creeping into their society. From Hollywood movies, to Coca Cola commercials. It wasn't forced on them - it was just something that became more and more popular, and more of the norm over time. They're upset that part of their own people buy into so-called "western values", and believe that in order to change that they have to fight a "holy war" with the West. In the process, they have no problem sacrificing many of their own people as a way to teach the West a lesson. |
I think that it's more then Coca Cola commercials.. its deep wounds that have been created over time and history, and one of them it's been a strong supporter with Israel, that just fuels them. Lets be honest here. The United States Policy back in the 70's and 80's was for the seek of it's own interests. And Id say the same for today. I know what your saying about respect and such, but you also gotta look their point of view, listen to what they gotta say and why.. it is no coca cola commercial or porn movies. They can get better porn from Europe for that matter. To them, it's a holy war against Evil trying to get into them ( they call the Westerners evil ).. and I think that the what Iraq has turned into dont help a whole lot, or Afghanistan, and now Lebanon. Dont get me wrong though, Im not a supporter of the muslim side, but its just a matter of understanding what their culture it's about before we deal with them. Historians warned that Iraq had all this extreme religious group and that a democratic gov't just doesnt do it.. and it's sad that they were proving right that's all.
PS: Im from Chile, and I can talk at how the US played dirty during the Military coup of Augusto Pinochett.. there goes another example, I still remember Powell saying Sorry for the actions of that time, that was priceless. |
|
|
| CHRles |
It's ironic that the country that hates Israel the most, Iran, is the same country that should be thanking Israel - back in the early 80s Israel bombed the nuclear plant in Iraq.
If you think Sadam would have only used nuclear weapons against Israel you're sorely mistaken - he had chosen to use chemical warfare against Iran, so there's high probability that if given the chance he would have used something even more destructive.
I also don't think you realize how deep the connection is between the US and Israel. Even though Israel doesn't have oil the US still chooses to side with it. Even though Jews make up less then 2 percent of the population in America, you still have see America coming to Israel's help.
The truth is though, that if Israel would be at war with some of its Arab neighbors Europe would also be supporting Israel as well (read supplying it money for weapons). After all, it was the French who supplied Israel with nuclear capabilities back in the 1960s.
There's a very strong tie between Israel and the rest of the Western world that Arabs can't understand. It's not just b/c of what happened in Europe during World War II. Is it also b/c Israelis have never sided with Communism (or rather the Soviets), like some of the Arab world in the past, or b/c Israel has never blamed "the West" for its own problems.
Or is it b/c Israel was the first democracy in the Middle East? You know Israeli Arabs after all have the same right to vote in the Israeli elections, and also have the same rights to social welfare programs and education as the Jewish population.
Or maybe it's b/c half the time when Europe and America tried to aid the Palestianian people who really needed help, the Palestinian leaders were too corrupt and basically stole all the money coming into aid their people? Even Egypt, Jordan and Saudi Arabia are pissed at Hamas and the Hizbollah b/c half the times they've tried to broker serious (significant) peace talks between Israel and the palestinian leadership, a big suicide bombing occurs in Israel. |
|
|
| trancaholic |
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
Well lets say are right, they still have a valid point no? |
On some accounts, yes. On others, no. AFAIR the last time I found myself agreeing with the "Arab street" was in connection to the wall/fence.
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
You also have to realise that apart from in Lebanon, people in the Middle East are simply not free to protest against certain issues (oppression of Arabs at the hands of Arab regimes for example) I might also suggest that the people who care the most about the plight of others are the more well off (Westerners) who's lives are significantly better off than others
|
We can agree on these aspects, but I don't think them of any importance to the problem I'm speaking about.
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
My point was simply that America will go out of it's way to defend these regimes against threats that exist, or may exist in the future as American domestic stability will be directly affected if these countries fall into hostile hands |
Yes, I got that point. I was just wandering how it related to internal threats against the regime. AFAIK the US have yet to help a Middle East regime fight back an uprising among its people?
| quote: | Originally posted by qussay
even if the death toll is 10 from the Qana bombing ,look at what israel is doing for 3 kidnapped soldiers....... or wait , is that real reason ???? |
This is a red herring. I've deliberately not said anything about the current conflict, because I don't have the time for a 1000-page thread right now. My comment on the death toll, was a general comment that when you propagate false information, you have a moral responsibility to correct it.
| quote: | Originally posted by qussay
before you start making all those allegations , and assumptions about arabs and muslims in general , i suggest you take a minute, and think that since you DONT live even close to the region, and you rely on limited ( imo ) sources of informtation from the media, you dont know half of whats going on, really |
Sort of like how you don't really live in Lebanon? Yet continue whining about how the circumstances are there? And how you don't live in Israel, and keep conjecturing on their agendas? In fact, according to your own logic, shouldn't I take the opinion of people like Epicurus (Lebanese) and Psy-T (Israeli) over those of you? In fact, shouldn't you yourself drop that one-sided hatred and jump onto one of their more moderate stances?
| quote: | Originally posted by qussay
and like the other discussion we had , were you tried to bring points regarding :
1. Qandah issue in Jordan
2. The Government officials against zarqawi's death
3. The honor killing laws in Jordan
and in the end , you discovered NEW information ,you were not aware of , which proved my point . |
Proved your point? What point? That Danish cartoons were made to insult Muslims worldwide? I suggest you re-read that thread.
| quote: | Originally posted by qussay
Arabs and muslims looking up to hizbollah and hamas , regardless of what you think about it ! where is the hypocracy , stupidity , and racism there ? Is it wrong , to stand up to what we believe in ?
|
I didn't say that it was hypocritical or stupid to look up to Hamas and Hizbollah (although I *do* think that it is stupid to do so). What I called hypocritical, stupid, *and* racist was your eagerness to hate Israel and the US, for "crimes" that have been committed to a far worse extent by non-Israelis and non-Americans.
| quote: | Originally posted by qussay
If you are still thinking about the other countries , let me tell you this , do you know how many iraqis jordan took in after the war , and gave them citizenships ? Did you hear about all the events, seminars , summits , and projects held weekly in jordan to help iraq in several areas? such as rebuild iraq , the iraqi religions summit , the joined muslims of iraq summit, or iraqna ( our iraq in arabic ) ? didnt think so.
|
But did you *protest* the killings committed by non-Westerners in Iraq? That's the focal point here. It's of no importance to the discussion how nice your people have been to the refugees from Iraq. I'm quite aware how nice Arabs can be. And I'm also aware how Islam requires of its believers that they take care of the poor. But that is not the issue here. The issue is that your anger *only* erupts when you can find some way to connect Israel or the US with the dealings. Take the cartoons, for instance. The hate didn't really get going until you came up with a conspiracy linking it to the Jews.
| quote: | Originally posted by qussay
do you know the Amman islam message ? which through it , several seminars are held discussing how to spread the unified, peaceful message of islam to other countrie ; including sudan ? |
I tried to read that piece, but it was a terrible read for an agnostic. Do you care to summarize it without all the verses and Islamic elaborations?
| quote: | Originally posted by qussay
Did you hear , about the sudan embassies protest , where sudn embassies throughout the middle east held joint protests , which included other emabassies and individuals , to condemn the killings in sudan? |
I have not heard about this, and I would sure love a link for this. I tried searching for something on this, but came up with nothing. If there was a coordinated (joint) protest all over the Middle East against the killings in Sudan, I would have expected it to get at least some local coverage.
| quote: | Originally posted by qussay
i can go on for days talking about such events , but since the majority of people in the middle east, cant afford internet connections , you wont find links to such events , or there are but i cant find them , and the media doesnt cover such events...so it doesnt make it any easier to find any ! |
If this is true, maybe you should direct some of all that angry energy into reforming your media?
| quote: | Originally posted by qussay
The US will create scenarios to keep its presence in the area , we all agree on that , oil is whats important here. and yes, our leaders are supported by the US , its a mutual benefit deal , the US will dictate how to rule the country, in return , the leader will keep his job. and in countries where monarchs actually rule , its very difficult to influence the leadership! |
This is what I call stupid. What have the US "dictated" in Jordan recently? In Egypt? Saudi-arabia? Iraq? Palestine? Why did the US complain when the Egyptian authorities cracked down on democracy demonstrators?
| quote: | Originally posted by qussay
so before you accuse any of us of anything , being in denmark, you have NO CLUE whats going on in this part of the world...
|
I've already addressed this point above, but I'm curious why you post here, if you see those of us not living directly in the center of events as a priori without reasonable opinion?
Btw. you didn't address my questions on why you don't get angry with Iran or Hizbollah? |
|
|
| George Smiley |
| quote: | Originally posted by CHRles
Well, it's one of the reasons. It's also b/c the Hizbollah had repeatedly fired on northern Israel after 2000, after Israel pulled out of Southern Lebanon. |
On how many occasions from the Israeli withdrawal in 2000 until the opening of current hostilities did Hizballah fire rockets into Israel? |
|
|
|
|
