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Qana (pg. 8)
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| George Smiley |
| quote: | Originally posted by emc^2
I'm not refusing to discuss anything. As I said earlier, my views on settlers is that IT IS OUR LAND. Show me coherent evidence that it is not and I'll be glad to re-consider my position. However, as it stands - that has been historically Israeli. |
So you support Jewish extremism while criticising Islamic extremism? Can you not see how that might(!) be seen as a tad(!) hypocritical?
| quote: | | So, please - do enlighen me with your views on Northern Ireland (which I presume you're referring to as "Monkey Island" in your "location" setting). |
Never heard of Monkey Island :rolleyes:
As for Northern Ireland (and this is all I'm saying on the matter as this has nothing whatsoever to do with the topic) my view is that if the population want to become either independant or rejoin the Republic of Ireland then why not? It wont affect us, it wont affect them, it wont make any difference really so sure, if that's what they decide... |
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| Psionic |
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
So you support Jewish extremism while criticising Islamic extremism? Can you not see how that might(!) be seen as a tad(!) hypocritical?
Never heard of Monkey Island :rolleyes:
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Jewish extremism isn't about destroying a race or ethnic group. You think fighting for survival is extremism? |
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| Shakka |
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
So you support Jewish extremism while criticising Islamic extremism? Can you not see how that might(!) be seen as a tad(!) hypocritical?
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Could you please compare and contrast Jewish extremism and Islamic extremism so I at least know where you're coming from. At face value that doesn't seem like an apt comparison. |
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| Flotser |
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
What are your views on the settlers???
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the settlers are devided to many various groups. most of the settlers are not extrimists at all, the various israeli goverments decided to create several settelments and bring people there (for many reasons, some were right in my opinion and some were not) using various benifits in taxes and low prices. Many people simply went to live there because it was much cheaper and offered good living conditions. Many of these settlers are also immigrants that simply wanted to buy cheep houses and were motivated by the goverment to go there. These settlers are the the majority of settlers, and they are not extrimist at all, and if you will have chance to talk to them you will agree with me.
In addition, many settlers are people who came to live there due to ideology, but they also were motivated by the goverment. they are law-keeping citizens and i don't see them as extrimists either. They don't attack palestinians, and before the Intifada, there were alot of positve relations betweeen them and the palestinains. Most of them are "right-winged" in their opinions and will be against the dismantling of settelmets, but if the goverment decides to do it, they will cry but will do nothing extreme.
However, there is small group among the settlers that are very extreme in my opinion. They also operate against the law, and also attack palestinians. Many of them sit in prison and the israeli police\defence forces do alot to stop their activity. They are extrimists, but yo must understand they are a small group and are criminials - every society has criminals. Those who attempt to attack palestinians are treated severly and punished. I believe there is no justification for their actions.
So to sum this up. you realy shouldn't take "the settlers" as one group. Also, I havn't discussed here if the settelments are right or wrong, just talked about the people who live there and you seem to regard them all as extrimists - just think about how many people in the world are livig\lived in terretories that were occupied somewhere in the recent past. |
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| emc^2 |
^^^excellent post. Many people around the world don't see all sides of the situation. They just see what's presented to them, canned and packaged by whatever media outlet agenda is for the day.
I'm actually quite facinated by the sheer rabidness of some people, based on nothing but often biased media coverage, without any first-hand knowledge of the situation.
Bottom line is this: current situation in the middle east goest to benefit no one better than Iran. Here's my thougts why:
A) They build support for Hizzbolah
B) Iran is a major supplier of oil to many countries who would like nothing better than Israel and/or US to fall on its face. Countries, where press is not independent and controlled by the government. Don't think that Iran with all its money cannot afford to grease few wheels here and there to create some biased views.
C) Get the rest of the world to feel the pain of the middle east conflict by surging gas prices, while periodically slipping in phrases like: if it weren't for Israeli conflict, your gas prices would be cheaper. It doesn't take much to incite antisemitism on already fertile grounds.
D) Solidify US and Israel as outcasts, possibly isolating them from thier EU "partners".
and not the least
E) Keep attention away from Iranian nuclear program and/or justify its existance.
There are many other sub points that I can't be arsed to write down but you get the point. |
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| George Smiley |
Ok lets talk about Jewish extremists (and settlers, who are, in my opinion, religious extremists - bare in mind extremism does not neccessarily mean you carry out extremist actions, but that you have extremist views and/or support extremist actions)
| quote: | The main organisation representing Jewish settlers in the occupied West Bank and Gaza Strip has pledged to fight against the implementation of the roadmap.
The Yesha Council said the peace plan threatened to undermine the existence of Israel.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mi...ast/2963594.stm |
Ok nothing really wrong with that but I thought it would be a nice start as it a) gives us the name of the "main organisation representing Jewish settlers" (which suggests they are, well, representative of the settlers!) and b) it shows that thousands of settlers (bare in mind there are only "thousands" of settlers) are against the peace process. So what about this Yesha Council?
| quote: | The Yesha Council is the local government of Israeli settlers in "Yesha," a Hebrew acronym for Judea, Samaria, Gaza, which are otherwise referred to as the West Bank and Gaza Strip.
The council was founded in the 1970s as the successor to Gush Emunim, an organization formed to oversee the return of Jewish settlers to what they see as their homeland. The Jewish population of the towns, cities, and villages that comprise Yesha stands at around 225,000 (Wikipedia) |
| quote: | | Gush Emunim beliefs are based heavily on the teachings of Rabbi Abraham Kook and his son, Rabbi Tzvi Yehuda Kook. The two rabbis taught that secular Zionists, through their conquests of Eretz Israel, had unwittingly brought about the beginning of the "messianic age", which would end in the coming of the Jewish messiah. Gush Emunim supporters believe that the coming of the messiah can be hastened through Jewish settlement on land they believe God has allotted to the Jewish people as outlined in the Hebrew Bible (Wikipedia) |
That's not extrimist views?!?!
So let's look at where these extrimist views have led to...
Those are just a few examples of the kinds of things settlers get upto. Not really much you say and I'd have to agree, doesn't really go very far towards my claims of these mysterious "Jewish extremists" that I speak of...so...Kahane and Kach...
Let's see if the information about these two overlapping groups adds any weight to the notion of a "Jewish extremist"...
| quote: | Both Kach and Kahane Chai organize protests against the Israeli Government, and harass and threaten Palestinians in Hebron and the West Bank. Groups affiliated with them have threatened to attack Arabs, Palestinians, and Israeli Government officials. They also claimed responsibility for several shooting attacks on West Bank Palestinians in which four persons were killed and two were wounded in 1993.
Membership of the two groups overlap. Both groups operate primarily in Israel and West Bank settlements, particularly Qiryat Arba' in Hebron. The organizations receive support from sympathizers in the United States and Europe.
http://www.ict.org.il/organizations/orgdet.cfm?orgid=19 |
Well they almost sound like a terroist group don't they? Oh that's right, they are...
The threat of Jewish terrorism in Israel
Extremism in the name of religion: Kahane and it's offshhots
Hebron massacre (by member of Kach)
Celebrations of the Hebron massacre
Settler assassinates Rabin
Settlers celebrate assassination of Rabin
Kach caught with explosives to bomb Palestinians
And just for Shakka, so we can compare Palestinian and Jewish extremism - Kahanists caught planting a bomb between hospital and girls school (bombed timed to explode as girls arrive at school)
Might wanna check out their website - http://www.kahane.org/ - and in particular their belief that all Arabs should be driven out of Israel (Eretz Israel - which is Israel and the Palestinian territories) - which of course, is ethnic cleansing.
So I hope I have made it perfectly clear by what I mean about Jewish extremism and Jewish terrorism. I am in now way suggesting that quantitively, this compares with Palestinian extremism because it doesn't. However, is there any difference in principle? A bomb set of to detonate as 1,500 girls arrived at school? That quite simply is as bad as anything the Palestinians have done, and shows you that these extremists are just as bad as their Palestinian counterparts in what they are prepared to do.
I would also like to applaud the Israeli authorities for combating this threat (which is more than can be said for their Palestinian counterparts) and this is in now way my opinion of Israelis, just a good proportion of the settlers (who some incinuate could not possibly be compared to Palestinian extremists). Maybe what Floster says is true for the period after 1967, that the settlers were 'moderate' and moved there for security reasons (which is true) and were paid generously (still true today), but today, they are not there for the security of Israel (because the security of Israel would be so much more improved were they not there). They are there to establish the Greater Israel and in my opinion, that is completely extremist. I should also point out that I am not trying to say all settlers committ extremist actions (because that is not true) but they do, by their very nature (being religious fundamentalists) prescribe to extremist views. I would also be interested to know the percentage of Americans living in the settlements (many for one year at a time to do 'service')
So, a few questions to those who support the settlers...
1) Do you agree with the establishment of the Greater Israel?
2) Do you believe the settlements are detrimental to Israeli security?
Oh and 56% of Israelis say they would support giving up all the settlements as part of a peace deal (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/object...l?itemNo=301630) |
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| George Smiley |
Just to summarise my point about Jewish extremism vis a vis Palestinian extremism:
| quote: | | In principle, the quest for the "Greater Israel" is no different to the quest to drive the Jews into the sea ... |
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| emc^2 |
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
Ok lets talk about Jewish extremists (and settlers, who are, in my opinion, religious extremists - bare in mind extremism does not neccessarily mean you carry out extremist actions, but that you have extremist views and/or support extremist actions)
Ok nothing really wrong with that but I thought it would be a nice start as it a) gives us the name of the "main organisation representing Jewish settlers" (which suggests they are, well, representative of the settlers!) and b) it shows that thousands of settlers (bare in mind there are only "thousands" of settlers) are against the peace process. So what about this Yesha Council?
That's not extrimist views?!?!
So let's look at where these extrimist views have led to...
Those are just a few examples of the kinds of things settlers get upto. Not really much you say and I'd have to agree, doesn't really go very far towards my claims of these mysterious "Jewish extremists" that I speak of...so...Kahane and Kach...
Let's see if the information about these two overlapping groups adds any weight to the notion of a "Jewish extremist"...
Well they almost sound like a terroist group don't they? Oh that's right, they are...
The threat of Jewish terrorism in Israel
Extremism in the name of religion: Kahane and it's offshhots
Hebron massacre (by member of Kach)
Celebrations of the Hebron massacre
Settler assassinates Rabin
Settlers celebrate assassination of Rabin
Kach caught with explosives to bomb Palestinians
And just for Shakka, so we can compare Palestinian and Jewish extremism - Kahanists caught planting a bomb between hospital and girls school (bombed timed to explode as girls arrive at school)
Might wanna check out their website - http://www.kahane.org/ - and in particular their belief that all Arabs should be driven out of Israel (Eretz Israel - which is Israel and the Palestinian territories) - which of course, is ethnic cleansing.
So I hope I have made it perfectly clear by what I mean about Jewish extremism and Jewish terrorism. I am in now way suggesting that quantitively, this compares with Palestinian extremism because it doesn't. However, is there any difference in principle? A bomb set of to detonate as 1,500 girls arrived at school? That quite simply is as bad as anything the Palestinians have done, and shows you that these extremists are just as bad as their Palestinian counterparts in what they are prepared to do.
I would also like to applaud the Israeli authorities for combating this threat (which is more than can be said for their Palestinian counterparts) and this is in now way my opinion of Israelis, just a good proportion of the settlers (who some incinuate could not possibly be compared to Palestinian extremists). Maybe what Floster says is true for the period after 1967, that the settlers were 'moderate' and moved there for security reasons (which is true) and were paid generously (still true today), but today, they are not there for the security of Israel (because the security of Israel would be so much more improved were they not there). They are there to establish the Greater Israel and in my opinion, that is completely extremist. I should also point out that I am not trying to say all settlers committ extremist actions (because that is not true) but they do, by their very nature (being religious fundamentalists) prescribe to extremist views. I would also be interested to know the percentage of Americans living in the settlements (many for one year at a time to do 'service')
So, a few questions to those who support the settlers...
1) Do you agree with the establishment of the Greater Israel?
2) Do you believe the settlements are detrimental to Israeli security?
Oh and 56% of Israelis say they would support giving up all the settlements as part of a peace deal (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/object...l?itemNo=301630) |
George, you put together a nice and cohesive post. Though it fails to acknowledge any gray areas - not make it out to be just black/white.
Kahane organization is internationally acknowledged terrorist group. Even in US. I would 100% agree with you that the ideas behind radical Zionists movement is a pure and simple EXTERMISM.
I would not support driving out all arabs out of Israeli lands or ethnic cleansing. The radicals you described are absolutely and positively just as bad as any other radicals.
My thought on the issue is why can't Palestinians and Jews co-exist on the same land, respect it and help it flourish? Because of these extremists on both sides. Neither side is willing to concede or compromise and religious ideologies, fed and pounded into heads from birth are not going to make things better as they progress further.
I do think that those territories have been historically Israeli and I think that from historical standpoint, if there were substantial evidence to establish it so, those lands should remain in Israeli possesion. The problem is that even by succeeding those territories to Palestinians, the problem does not get solved. Both sides are furious and will continue to provoke violence on both sides.
There is one major difference. Those who provoke violence from Israeli side are punished by the government. Those who do the same from Palestinian side are declared heroes and get rewards.
See the difference?
Thanks for brining up the subject of ultra-zionist fanatics. Don't think that everyone who lives in Israel of who is a Jew shares the same views and goals.
I know I'm not one of those people. |
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| George Smiley |
| quote: | Originally posted by emc^2
George, you put together a nice and cohesive post. Though it fails to acknowledge any gray areas - not make it out to be just black/white.
Kahane organization is internationally acknowledged terrorist group. Even in US. I would 100% agree with you that the ideas behind radical Zionists movement is a pure and simple EXTERMISM.
I would not support driving out all arabs out of Israeli lands or ethnic cleansing. The radicals you described are absolutely and positively just as bad as any other radicals. |
Ok cool, I just thought you were giving me the impression that you did, especially as you keep refering to "Israeli lands" when you mean Gaza and the West Bank, which are Palestinian territories (whether you like it or not!) Also when you refer to "historically Israeli" I get the impression you support Eretz Israel (and also that you are deeply religious to support such a notion)
| quote: | | My thought on the issue is why can't Palestinians and Jews co-exist on the same land, respect it and help it flourish? Because of these extremists on both sides. Neither side is willing to concede or compromise and religious ideologies, fed and pounded into heads from birth are not going to make things better as they progress further. |
I guess the best case scenario (ie a completely unlikely one!) is that the settlements remain and the settlers become citizens of the Palestinian state (should they wish to remain there). However, the Palestinian government won't protect them (and they will need protecting as Palestinians envious of where they live won't like them, let alone all the history between them!) If the settlers can accept Palestinian citizenship then fine, I would support them staying, but they won't, and the Palestinian state will offer them no protection so I think eventually they have to go (altho I support the annexation of settlements directly on the border of Israel as long as no Arab land is contonised)
| quote: | | I do think that those territories have been historically Israeli and I think that from historical standpoint, if there were substantial evidence to establish it so, those lands should remain in Israeli possesion. The problem is that even by succeeding those territories to Palestinians, the problem does not get solved. Both sides are furious and will continue to provoke violence on both sides. |
Again we have the word historically and Yoepus is thinking "emc^2, just stfu up otherwise George is gonna get Israel Finkelstein on your ass!" which is true - next time I hear you refer to the occupied Palestinian territories Israel Finkelstein is comin out of the box!!!
| quote: | | There is one major difference. Those who provoke violence from Israeli side are punished by the government. Those who do the same from Palestinian side are declared heroes and get rewards. |
True, as I said above, I applaud the Israeli authorities for battling against this threat (altho obviously they're as much of a target of these groups as the Palestinians so they're gonna take action!!)
| quote: | | Thanks for brining up the subject of ultra-zionist fanatics. Don't think that everyone who lives in Israel of who is a Jew shares the same views and goals. |
I don't!! :eyes: (Altho sometimes I can't help getting that impression from Yoepus! (Only kiddin mate!))
| quote: | | I know I'm not one of those people. |
Glad to hear it! |
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| emc^2 |
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
Again we have the word historically and Yoepus is thinking "emc^2, just stfu up otherwise George is gonna get Israel Finkelstein on your ass!" which is true - next time I hear you refer to the occupied Palestinian territories Israel Finkelstein is comin out of the box!!!
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Can you please substantiate your claims on the "occupied territories", as you seem to be convinced of some facts I'm not in full agreement with. Just curious what is your reasoning for labeling it so. |
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| George Smiley |
| quote: | Originally posted by emc^2
Can you please substantiate your claims on the "occupied territories", as you seem to be convinced of some facts I'm not in full agreement with. Just curious what is your reasoning for labeling it so. |
Erm because they are non-sovereign Palestinian territories occupied by Israel? |
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