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6 Canadian soldiers killed in Afghan bomb blast (pg. 5)
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View this Thread in Original format
| EvilTree |
| quote: | Originally posted by Magnetonium
I have my own vision to the solution in Afghanistan, but I dont think I'll get in detail because its only my vision, my opinion. But it doesnt involve continuing the carpet bombing of the Afghani mountains and searching every fox hole for the terrorists. They represent strong forces. It appears that they won't be easily or defeated anytime soon. Different approach is necessary. |
NATO stopped doing that a long time ago. Precision strikes, yes. Carpet bombing no. Too expensive. (not to mention someone might get upset if all their goats get blown up)
| quote: |
We, the West, have demostrated that we can dethrone them. We need to get together will all the major players, not just some weak puppets and establish guidelines and structure to form Afghanistan as a secure and democratic government. |
And how would you better the current govt? Where would you find qualified leaders? You do know that all Afghan elections were monitored by int. neutral observers and they didn't find any fault on it? (Not to mention high turn out)
| quote: | | Eventually things will then sort themselves out. |
Are you serious? Simple as that eh? | quote: |
Troops need to go, many Afghanis perceive this as occupation and resistance thrives on this. |
Some Afghans may feel this and I'll even give in that a lot of Afghans are not uncomfortable with foreigners on their land (I would be too) but keep in mind that these foreigners are actually trying to help them. (vice Taliban blowing their up) For most part, I'd think most just wanna get on with their lives while keeping their head down when the bullets fly over head.
| quote: | | If Americans continue to support weak puppets and turn away strong rulers, violence will deteriorate. If US uses them to bring peace and stability, eventually it will gradually be able to turn the page the way it wants. |
Strong rulers? Who are these guys?
You do know that Afghanistan as a nation always has been a fragile concept, right? Afghanistan has always been divided along tribal lines with each tribe having their own different cultures, language, even religion. I can't see any ruler who has a stronger backing than Karzai right now, even if his govt is still weak.
| quote: | | It cant happen with direct military force and subsequent military occupation. |
So UN resolution authorizing this and subsequent invitation by elected Afghan govt is not enough for NATO to step in to help out Afghanistan?
| quote: |
Something along those lines. Basically current methods are failing, it is obvious. Imagine one day American government will be unable to fund Afghanistan government. Everything will collapse. Right now it works like a stack of cards, very thin and fragile. There's no strong base from which to work from. Warlords are still controlling their lands, and produce drugs and violate human rights. So it rightfully appears that a puppet government is in place to serve someone else's agenda.
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You keep saying puppet govt, but you've failed to show any strong evidence that Karzai is working only for US. Hypothesis is no proof. I want evidence.
| quote: |
Kinda like in Iraq I think US should talk and make deals and co-operate with the powerful clerics, the ones who can influence crowds and people, not the weak puppet government. Step by step, with strong foundation, democracy can be achieved. But puppet governments will eventually fall, as was seen with Soviet Union's puppet regime of Afghanistan. |
I agree that since Islam is a major force in Afghanistan, the clerics def need to be brought in to combat the extremists.
But NATO isn't fighting the Afghan people, only the Taliban and other insurgents. This isn't like 1979.
| quote: |
EDIT: Basically I think that we can achieve this without force. If we rely on force all the time and cant achieve the support of the people, then if the force is gone, the rule is gone. |
No.
You've failed to mention what will the Taliban be doing, because they certainly aren't interested in any sort of democratic govt in Afghanistan. They see NATO leaving, and they shout for joy and they resume the civil war just like how they took over power in the 90s.
Since I think we're both for democracy, liberty, human rights and all that jazz in Afghanistan, having Taliban in power would be bad, eh? Hence why NATO has to stay until the Taliban is defeated, or at least the Afghan govt can do that on its own.
I'll give you this illustration.
Afghanistan is like a leaky boat with holes and the water is coming in. NATO w/ other int partners are bailing the water out so that the Afghan govt can plug in the holes themselves. In essence, we're buying time so that the Afghan govt can do all the things that the govt is suppose to be doing.
Afghanistan won't be solved other than by Afghan solutions. Until then, NATO is just along for the ride to help out the Karzai govt. (No, I'm not naive to think that NATO and other nations don't have their own agenda, but for most part, I think they are in it to help the Karzai govt because it does suit their purpose to see Afghanistan not be ruled by extremist Islam fundamentalist) |
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| Magnetonium |
| quote: | Originally posted by EvilTree
NATO stopped doing that a long time ago. Precision strikes, yes. Carpet bombing no. Too expensive. (not to mention someone might get upset if all their goats get blown up)
And how would you better the current govt? Where would you find qualified leaders? You do know that all Afghan elections were monitored by int. neutral observers and they didn't find any fault on it? (Not to mention high turn out)
Are you serious? Simple as that eh?
Some Afghans may feel this and I'll even give in that a lot of Afghans are not uncomfortable with foreigners on their land (I would be too) but keep in mind that these foreigners are actually trying to help them. (vice Taliban blowing their up) For most part, I'd think most just wanna get on with their lives while keeping their head down when the bullets fly over head.
Strong rulers? Who are these guys?
You do know that Afghanistan as a nation always has been a fragile concept, right? Afghanistan has always been divided along tribal lines with each tribe having their own different cultures, language, even religion. I can't see any ruler who has a stronger backing than Karzai right now, even if his govt is still weak.
So UN resolution authorizing this and subsequent invitation by elected Afghan govt is not enough for NATO to step in to help out Afghanistan?
You keep saying puppet govt, but you've failed to show any strong evidence that Karzai is working only for US. Hypothesis is no proof. I want evidence.
I agree that since Islam is a major force in Afghanistan, the clerics def need to be brought in to combat the extremists.
But NATO isn't fighting the Afghan people, only the Taliban and other insurgents. This isn't like 1979.
No.
You've failed to mention what will the Taliban be doing, because they certainly aren't interested in any sort of democratic govt in Afghanistan. They see NATO leaving, and they shout for joy and they resume the civil war just like how they took over power in the 90s.
Since I think we're both for democracy, liberty, human rights and all that jazz in Afghanistan, having Taliban in power would be bad, eh? Hence why NATO has to stay until the Taliban is defeated, or at least the Afghan govt can do that on its own.
I'll give you this illustration.
Afghanistan is like a leaky boat with holes and the water is coming in. NATO w/ other int partners are bailing the water out so that the Afghan govt can plug in the holes themselves. In essence, we're buying time so that the Afghan govt can do all the things that the govt is suppose to be doing.
Afghanistan won't be solved other than by Afghan solutions. Until then, NATO is just along for the ride to help out the Karzai govt. (No, I'm not naive to think that NATO and other nations don't have their own agenda, but for most part, I think they are in it to help the Karzai govt because it does suit their purpose to see Afghanistan not be ruled by extremist Islam fundamentalist) |
Oh really? No voting irregularities, eh? I remember UN accused them with irregularities. Now a quick search netted me a result:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/3733760.stm
UN to investigate Afghan election
Basically, current campaign is failing. There is crime, corruption, drug production, denial of human rights in the country. NATO has achieved little other than bribing and swaying over criminal warlords to them. There are former war criminals in the Afghani government. All of this and more is supported by NATO and their allies. Puppet regime. Little accomplished. Once Americans withdraw their troops just like Soviets did the country will again submerge into conflict. Its inevitable. Current plans need to be redrawn.
They are not fixing leaking holes, otherwise you'd see much more work in Afghanistan right now. But I am afraid the reality is far from all the wonderful words you hear. The puppet regime is losing popularity. Pakistanis are supporting and are a home to the terrorists as well, and US is pretty darn quiet about it. The only thing I see about Afghanistan is a puppet regime in support of Americans. But in this case, there are no Soviets to fund and arm the resistance like it was vice versa in 1980s. Now, and many years from now, this regime will be solely reliable on NATO. NATO will have to lose many more troops, resources and money until it figures out its current plans are failing. As they take out the force, the government will collapse. Sounds like a very happy country to me!
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| erdega |
| quote: | Originally posted by EvilTree
Oh boy. This will be fun. (And I'm bored from studying for exams)
Fact 1
-Peacekeeping (in its original concept) happens when 2 warring parties (or more) invites UN (or other supposedly neutral party) to act as peacekeepers to monitor ceasefire/treaty whatever.
Afghanistan does not meet that criteria, therefore traditional peacekeeping mission cannot happen |
that's not really how it goes as this peace force goes in regardless of the sides involved or in the case of iraq not at all . It really depends on how much risk they want to take or how much the resistance there is or what their gain and goal is
| quote: | Originally posted by EvilTree
Fact 2
-Canada is acting under mandate granted by UN resolutions (forgot number) which grants NATO authority to kick Taliban out and support Karzai govt. (You can blame Russia, China, France for not vetoing those resolutions. Last time I checked, they don't follow US policy blindly) |
UN has no credibility out there since the American aggressions on Serbia and Iraq which they never condemned and later tried to legitimize under American thumb . UN is firmly under the thumb of western imperialists and it has no credibility . Now why are Imperialist appologists caling up on UN and then when they launch their aggressive unjustifiable wars they refuse to acknowledge UN has any authority? Now if it had any real universal authority it would stop US and nato long ago ;)
| quote: | Originally posted by EvilTree
Fact 3
-Western imperialists led by America are acknowledged as known mass murderers and violators of human rights. They are fundamentalists that pervert the message of Democracy for their own use, and will use any methods to implement their twisted way of life on the people of Afghanistan and everywhere else. (If you think that's ok, then well, I give up) |
Fixed it for you. I definitelly don't think it's right to fight imperialist wars based on lies and deceptions and the bigger these lies are , easier they go. Let it be known that all those who lied from the media and officials are as free as ever and never held accountable and ready to launch another war and another slaughter elsewhere
| quote: | Originally posted by EvilTree
Fact 4
-The people of Afghanistan have suffered for many years (30+) of war, and they desperately need international aid to build a society that is better for their future. (Afghanistan ranks near the bottom on UN Quality of Life index) However, because of attacks by Taliban and other insurgent groups, humanitarian work cannot go on until the insurgents are neutralized and areas safe for humanitarian workers to do their work without need for security. |
Non sense, Americans are bombing indiscriminatelly like they bombed Serbia and Iraq . They installed a pupet regime that has no credibility with the people and stirred a civil war . LIkewise Americans didn't care about Afghanistan development when they financed those islamic warriors in the 80-90's.
| quote: | | Originally posted by EvilTree The Taliban has every vested interest in attacking infrastructures being built, because that takes away support from them, and they cannot provide same or better quality of life for Afghan people. Therefore they will use every method, incl. kidnapping, extortion, outright attacks on civilians |
Those are American/Nato tactics I know very well. As a Serbian I can very well remember Americans/Nato aggressors bombing bridges,tv stations , gas depots, trains,open markets, buses, appartment buildings and chinese embassies among other things with purpose and impunity . Let's examine their proclivites from their self quotes which are admittedly censored and actions speak louder than words of course. And Remember that they targeted Serbia because they wanted to adopt an Islamic cause to balance out their war on Iraq and unequealed support for Israel.
http://members.tripod.com/~sarant_2/ksquotes.html
"The pilot dropped the bomb in good faith, as you would expect of a trained pilot from a democratic NATO country to do". Jamie Shea, about the NATO bombing against a Kosovar refugees' convoy, April 15.
Presumably, dead refugees should be proud that they were killed by a trained pilot from a democratic country who was acting in good faith and not left alive by some semi-civilised undemocratic Serb thugs.
The bombing campaign--15,000 bombs and missiles so far--is working, says Germany's Gen. Klaus Naumann, NATO's senior military officer. "We will see how they will feel after a few more weeks and months or what have you of continuously pounding them into pieces."
Quoted in the Slate, 5/5/99
"I think no power to your refrigerator, no gas to your stove, you can't get to work because the bridge is down - the bridge on which you held your rock concerts -- and you all stood with targets on your heads. That needs to disappear at 3 o'clock in the morning.".
USAF Gen. Michael Short, quoted by the Observer in "Belgrade open for business as usual" (May, 16)
http://www.fair.org/extra/9907/kosovo-crimes.html
NATO justified the bombing of the Belgrade TV station, saying it was a legitimate military target. "We've struck at his TV stations and transmitters because they're as much a part of his military machine prolonging and promoting this conflict as his army and security forces," U.S. General Wesley Clark explained--"his," of course, referring to Yugoslavian President Slobodan Milosevic. It wasn't Milosevic, however, who was killed when the Belgrade studios were bombed on April 23, but rather 20 journalists, technicians and other civilians.
n the April 5 Time, for example, reporter Bruce Nelan took issue with NATO's use of lighter bombs in the Yugoslav war, noting that "smaller bombs means there's less certainty about destroying the target in one attack. And if the pilot has to come back, that increases the risk to him in order to lessen the risk of civilians on the ground--a kind of Disneyland idea of customer service that rankles many war fighters at the Pentagon."
Likewise, Washington Post columnist Charles Krauthammer (4/8/99) criticized the "excruciating selectivity" of NATO's bombing raids and applauded the fact that "finally they are hitting targets--power plants, fuel depots, bridges, airports, television transmitters--that may indeed kill the enemy and civilians nearby."
Not long into the war, NATO did relax the rules of engagement for the bombing campaign, quite predictably increasing the number of innocents killed by U.S. bombs--a development that was cheered by some pundits. New York Times foreign affairs columnist Thomas Friedman wrote on April 6 that "people tend to change their minds and adjust their goals as they see the price they are paying mount. Twelve days of surgical bombing was never going to turn Serbia around. Let's see what 12 weeks of less than surgical bombing does. Give war a chance."
Keep that legal standard in mind when you read Friedman in the New York Times (4/23/99), sounding remarkably like Ratko Mladic:
Let's at least have a real air war. The idea that people are still holding rock concerts in Belgrade, or going out for Sunday merry-go-round rides, while their fellow Serbs are "cleansing" Kosovo, is outrageous. It should be lights out in Belgrade: Every power grid, water pipe, bridge, road and war-related factory has to be targeted.
Like it or not, we are at war with the Serbian nation (the Serbs certainly think so), and the stakes have to be very clear: Every week you ravage Kosovo is another decade we will set your country back by pulverizing you. You want 1950? We can do 1950. You want 1389? We can do 1389 too.
And when you listen to Bill O'Reilly, the top-rated commentator on the Fox News Channel (4/26/99):
If NATO is not able to wear down this Milosevic in the next few weeks, I believe that we have to go in there and drop leaflets on Belgrade and other cities and say, "Listen, you guys have got to move because we're now going to come in and we're going to just level your country. The whole infrastructure is going."
Rather than put ground forces at risk where we're going to see 5,000 Americans dead, I would rather destroy their infrastructure, totally destroy it. Any target is OK. I'd warn the people, just as we did with Japan, that it's coming, you've got to get out of there, OK, but I would level that country so that there would be nothing moving--no cars, no trains, nothing.
As for Iraq
http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1084
Lesley Stahl on U.S. sanctions against Iraq: We have heard that a half million children have died. I mean, that's more children than died in Hiroshima. And, you know, is the price worth it?
Secretary of State Madeleine Albright: I think this is a very hard choice, but the price--we think the price is worth it.
We can see here that long before anyone heard of Al Qaida groups , these international imperialists and Goebels like journalists spoke and acted like the worst criminals ever known under the cover of ignorance and aggression . Al Qaida people are just poor imitators compared to this
| quote: | Originally posted by EvilTree Fact 5
-The current Afghan govt lead by Hamid Karzai and the legislative bodies are elected by the Afghan people. While they have their problems, it is still a young govt learning to provide a govt for a nation that has not had an effective govt for a long time and with help of other nations, the govt will learn better. |
I like Karzai who is a smart man and it's only unfortunate he is an american imperialist puppet with no authority outside of Kabul. He also speaks out against atrocities commited by American forces with their indiscriminate air bombings but to no avail as they don't listen to such people which only shows that Americans don't take him seriously and equally. And Afghanistan had a somewhat stable albeit communist government in the 70's before western forces armed islamic radicals to wreak havoc there and there hasn't been peace since however the dagger struck back at those who started it and in poetic justice we have these 2 fighting each other over a barren desolate land.
| quote: | Originally posted by EvilTree Fact 6
-Despite the myth that NATO and other Coalition forces are indiscriminate in attacks on civilians, standard Rules of Engagement does not permit such attacks on civilians. It only makes sense as the fastest way of losing local support is by causing civilian casualties. |
See above, Nato led by US makes deliberate attempt to target civilians in Afghanistan as they did to Iraq and especially Serbia. As far as Serbia , 99% of their targets were civilians with maybe 3 damaged tanks and they never dared to confront Serbian army on the ground.This was never condemned by anybody concerned and for example the man who was in charge and ordered these civilian bombing wesley (weasel) clarke even ran for US president. In Iraq , for 12 years of sanctions and purposeful bombing of civilian targets of all sorts with close to a million of civilian casualties before this war even started. We know that Iraq had little conventional army, no airforce with few outdated tanks yet US/uK continued to pound mercilessly in preparation for this war that followed.
| quote: | | Originally posted by EvilTree However, the Taliban has no regard for civilian casualties, and will continue to try to get NATO to cause civilian casualties whenever possible by using civilian homes as battlefields. Having said that, mistakes do happen and NATO have caused civilian casualties before, bu compared to what the Taliban is responsible for, it is miniscule. |
Taliban may be no better than American led Nato in regards to civilian targets however they don't have airplanes or laser guided bombs
| quote: | Originally posted by EvilTree As for Canadians withdrawing from NATO to stop Islamic fundamentalists attacks on Canada, are you serious?
These guys are bent on their version of perverted Islamic theocracy on the entire world in the name of Allah. They are against everything that Canada stands for, such as democracy, freedom of religion and speech, human rights, etc.
Withdrawing from NATO is not going to change that.
(And why hasn't France withdrawn from NATO? They are against the Yanks half the time and piss them off) |
it didn't stop US to support militarily all the islamic causes before. What connection is there with US and afghanistan mujahadeen in the 80's, bosnian muslims and greater albanian fascists, Shia and kurdish factions in Iraq etc.... There is no connection except they were used as imperialist tools and backed militarilly by US government to wreak havoc and wage wars of destruction. I might say that as long as it doesn't involve Israel, American policy has been pro islamic and jihadist sometimes to the extreme because at least prior to 9/11 they never saw muslims as a threat let alone to continental US security but wanted to use them as tools.
Al Qaida factions are different as they can't be controlled by western imperialists, not right now when they have become so big and with their own pan islamic agenda. I don't believe US figths Al Qaida otherwise they would have done something before 9/11 and they wouldn't attack Iraq which was at least secular at the time. American strategy can't fight these loose international groups even if they want to so they will never even try. They are trained to attack weakened governments and people. They use Al Qaida as a boogey man strategy but Al Qaida will continue to attack American forces as it's their sole purpose of existence .
I really believe Canada should withdraw from Nato but chances are slim to none at this point before US goes out through this terrible phase if for nothing else but to clear the concience and wake some people down south. It won't make much difference in the world but it would be a courageous thing to do |
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| Alex |
| quote: | Originally posted by Dj O'Callaghan
I strongly disagree. Have you heard of the Helmand Province? Where Brits are fighting day in day out against thousands of Taliban.
Go speak to the British soldiers there because their the guys who are really bearing the burnt of the conflict. In no way are they cruising around Kabul in jeeps having it easy. |
Helmand Province is extremely dangerous but the sizable British force was sent there not that long ago, Canada has been bearing quite a load in Kandahar and the surrounding area for a long time before the Brits were dispatched (in larger numbers) to Helmand province. |
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| LazFX |
hmmm interesting....... |
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| erdega |
04-01-2007
Qaida al-Jihad (The Base for the Holy Struggle)
as-Sahab (The Cloud) Media Productions
"The Status of the Dollar in Kunar Province"
http://www.siteinstitute.org/bin/articles.cgi?ID=publications269407&Category=publications&Subcategory=0
| quote: | SITE Publications
As-Sahab Issues Videos of Attacks on American Forces in the Provinces of Khost and Konar in Afghanistan
By SITE Institute
April 2, 2007
As-Sahab, the multimedia wing of al-Qaeda, issued in its series, ‘Hell for the Americans in the Land of Kharasan [Afghanistan]”, two videos between yesterday, April 1, 2007, and today, April 2. The video from yesterday, 4:37 minutes in length, depicts a “heroic operation” on an American center in the province of Konar, focused on an exchange of gunfire between the Mujahideen and enemy forces. According to a date given in the introduction, the operation occurred sometime between late-November and mid-December 2006. The other video, issued today, shows the detonation of an improvised explosive device on a Hummer in the province of Khost on November 22, 2006. Footage of the attack is played back twice within the one-minute clip.
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| LazFX |
| ^^ Oh boy, you are a little pack rat of info huh?? |
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| Dj O'Callaghan |
| quote: | Originally posted by Alex
Helmand Province is extremely dangerous but the sizable British force was sent there not that long ago, Canada has been bearing quite a load in Kandahar and the surrounding area for a long time before the Brits were dispatched (in larger numbers) to Helmand province. |
The Marines have sent a decent sized force when they took it over from the Para's. But the Parachute regiment were seriously outnumbered when they were serving in the Helmand Province. There was a couple of outposts where 7 or so Para's and handful of Afghan police were fighting off massive amounts Talaban fighters.
It was being reported a lot on the news. When the para's were dispatched they were seriously stretched, in no way did we have enough men. Since the Parachute regiment generals have complained to Whitehall the top brass finally listened, so when the Marines took over from the Para's they brought a decent size force. |
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