|
How much jail time should women who have abortions get? (pg. 7)
|
View this Thread in Original format
| distant |
| quote: | Originally posted by Lira
Then you come and say something just as irrational (replacing the pro-life "abortion is wrong because the bible says so" by a pro-choice "abortion is okay because the foetus is a parasite") |
Are you really comparing these? :wtf:
I'm looking at the direct effects of abortion. Which are, hey, none! The mother doesn't care, the fetus doesn't care and society SHOULDN'T care but it does for some retarded reason.
There's your "issue as a whole". What more is there to it? You tell me. |
|
|
| VAR |
| it's about imposing beliefs on others, at the expense of their freedom. |
|
|
| Lira |
| quote: | Originally posted by distant
Are you really comparing these? :wtf:
I'm looking at the direct effects of abortion. Which are, hey, none! The mother doesn't care, the fetus doesn't care and society SHOULDN'T care but it does for some retarded reason.
There's your "issue as a whole". What more is there to it? You tell me. |
- Sex-selective abortion and infanticide: The advent of both sonography and amniocentesis has allowed parents to determine sex before birth. This has led to the occurrence of sex-selective abortion or the targeted termination of a fetus based upon its sex.
It is suggested that sex-selective abortion might be partially responsible for the noticeable disparities between the birth rates of male and female children in some places. The preference for male children is reported in many areas of Asia, and abortion used to limit female births has been reported in Mainland China, Taiwan, South Korea, and India. [More].
- Abortion-breast cancer hypothesis: The abortion-breast cancer (ABC) hypothesis (also referred to by supporters as the ABC link) posits a causal relationship between induced abortion and an increased risk of developing breast cancer. In early pregnancy, levels of estrogen increase, leading to breast growth in preparation for lactation. The abortion-breast cancer hypothesis proposes that if this process is interrupted by an abortion – before full differentiation in the third trimester – then more relatively vulnerable undifferentiated cells could be left than there were prior to the pregnancy, resulting in a greater potential risk of breast cancer. (Although, naturally, it has not been extensively tested in humans).
- Post-abortion syndrome (PAS) : PAS is a term used to describe a set of mental health characteristics which some researchers claim to have observed in women following an abortion. The psycho-pathological symptoms attributed to PAS are similar to those of post-traumatic stress disorder, but have also included, "repeated and persistent dreams and nightmares related with the abortion, intense feelings of guilt and the 'need to repair'". [More]
- Fetal Rights: Clearly something you're not taking into account. Legally, however, the foetus can legally be a victim of a crime such as foeticide, a beneficiary of insurance or social assistance, or an inheritor of property. Claiming that a foetus has no rights, or that it just doesn't care, is a bold move: 3-months old foetus (and older) do try to protect themselves from the possible harm caused by alien objects, which is enough to show there's some will of survival.
- Minors and Abortion: Linking one problem to another, a pregnant minor might be pressured into having an abortion by an older boyfriend, so as to conceal the fact that he is guilty of statutory rape. So, no matter what theoretical perfection you idealise, the real world will always come up with new problems.
- Costs: Should abortion be legalised, public hospitals would probably have to do that. Now, unless the woman was raped, should the state pay for someone's sexual irresponsibility?
It's 4 AM and I really need to get some sleep, but you can find countless arguments for and against abortion. Don't even try to oversimplify such a delicate issue. |
|
|
| Clovis |
| quote: | Originally posted by distant
The mother doesn't care, the fetus doesn't care and society SHOULDN'T care but it does for some retarded reason. |
Religion. |
|
|
| Lira |
| quote: | Originally posted by Clovis
Religion. |
I'm an atheist and I'm not pro-choice ;) |
|
|
| Clovis |
| quote: | Originally posted by Lira
I'm an atheist and I'm not pro-choice ;) |
Because...? |
|
|
| Lira |
| quote: | Originally posted by Clovis
Because...? |
I find it ethically risky to legalise death up until one point (i.e. birth, or 3 months after conception, etcetera). Quoting Daniel Dennett in his book "Kinds of Minds", I prefer to err on the safe side, and grant the status of "mental being" to someone that might not have a mind, then make the dreadful mistake of ignoring another mind simply because what seems to be some sort of solipsist chauvinism. Even our concept of "where life begins" would be deeply embedded in linguistic and cultural issues anyway. |
|
|
| Clovis |
| quote: | Originally posted by Lira
I find it ethically risky to legalise death up until one point (i.e. birth, or 3 months after conception, etcetera). Quoting Daniel Dennett in his book "Kinds of Minds", I prefer to err on the safe side, and grant the status of "mental being" to someone without a mind, then make the dreadful mistake of ignoring another mind simply because what seems to be some sort of solipsist chauvinism. |
I can see that POV, but I think the decision should be left up to the mother. To me, this seems the most natural.
But you are probably in the minority among those who aren't pro-choice. You've actually thought about the issue to a good extent. :p |
|
|
| distant |
- Sex-selective abortion and infanticide: The advent of both sonography and amniocentesis has allowed parents to determine sex before birth. This has led to the occurrence of sex-selective abortion or the targeted termination of a fetus based upon its sex.
It is suggested that sex-selective abortion might be partially responsible for the noticeable disparities between the birth rates of male and female children in some places. The preference for male children is reported in many areas of Asia, and abortion used to limit female births has been reported in Mainland China, Taiwan, South Korea, and India. [More].
This is the only issue you've mentioned with global consequences. But alas, it's still up to the couple in question to decide.
- Abortion-breast cancer hypothesis: The abortion-breast cancer (ABC) hypothesis (also referred to by supporters as the ABC link) posits a causal relationship between induced abortion and an increased risk of developing breast cancer. In early pregnancy, levels of estrogen increase, leading to breast growth in preparation for lactation. The abortion-breast cancer hypothesis proposes that if this process is interrupted by an abortion – before full differentiation in the third trimester – then more relatively vulnerable undifferentiated cells could be left than there were prior to the pregnancy, resulting in a greater potential risk of breast cancer. (Although, naturally, it has not been extensively tested in humans).
The mother in question should be informed of this and left to make the decision.
- Post-abortion syndrome (PAS) : PAS is a term used to describe a set of mental health characteristics which some researchers claim to have observed in women following an abortion. The psycho-pathological symptoms attributed to PAS are similar to those of post-traumatic stress disorder, but have also included, "repeated and persistent dreams and nightmares related with the abortion, intense feelings of guilt and the 'need to repair'". [More]
As above.
- Fetal Rights: Clearly something you're not taking into account. Legally, however, the foetus can legally be a victim of a crime such as foeticide, a beneficiary of insurance or social assistance, or an inheritor of property. Claiming that a foetus has no rights, or that it just doesn't care, is a bold move: 3-months old foetus (and older) do try to protect themselves from the possible harm caused by alien objects, which is enough to show there's some will of survival.
That's very interesting, but by month 3 the decision (and action) should be made already. That's plenty of time to think about whether you really want to keep it or not.
- Minors and Abortion: Linking one problem to another, a pregnant minor might be pressured into having an abortion by an older boyfriend, so as to conceal the fact that he is guilty of statutory rape. So, no matter what theoretical perfection you idealise, the real world will always come up with new problems.
Seeing as the age of consent laws are pretty ed up (imo), they'd have to be changed first, but that's another topic.
- Costs: Should abortion be legalised, public hospitals would probably have to do that. Now, unless the woman was raped, should the state pay for someone's sexual irresponsibility?
Have the mother pay for it unless it's rape.
It's 4 AM and I really need to get some sleep, but you can find countless arguments for and against abortion. Don't even try to oversimplify such a delicate issue.
Maybe I am oversimplifying it, but, generally, legalizing abortion just seems to make the world a happier and freer place to live in. |
|
|
| RJT |
| quote: | Originally posted by Lira
I find it ethically risky to legalise death up until one point (i.e. birth, or 3 months after conception, etcetera). Quoting Daniel Dennett in his book "Kinds of Minds", I prefer to err on the safe side, and grant the status of "mental being" to someone that might not have a mind, then make the dreadful mistake of ignoring another mind simply because what seems to be some sort of solipsist chauvinism. Even our concept of "where life begins" would be deeply embedded in linguistic and cultural issues anyway. |
Huh - I've never seen Dennett adapted to the abortion debate, well done, though I think Dennett himself may disagree with your interpretation of his work. In my understanding, his discussion of granting beings that may or may not have a mind the status of mental beings relates moreover to our relation to other, non-human, living things in the world around us.
Still, interesting to see an environmental ethicist/evolutionary philosopher adapted for use in this kind of situation. |
|
|
| weymouth |
Here's that lady I was talking about that lives nearby:
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/08/01/mother.charged.ap/index.html
| quote: | OCEAN CITY, Maryland (AP) -- Investigators working on the case of a mother who allegedly hid several tiny bodies around her home have a daunting task ahead of them, both forensic and legal.
Even as FBI and local searchers prepared Wednesday to finish a three-day search of 37-year-old Christy Freeman's home, the four sets of pre-term remains recovered pose dilemmas.
Investigators must first determine whether all four bodies were the offspring of Freeman, who has four living children. She has been charged in the death of one of the pre-term infants, a 26-week-old fetus discovered under her bathroom sink last week.
Then investigators need to find out how old the other pre-term infants were when they died, when they died -- and whether Freeman or someone else was responsible for their dying before birth.
The timing in Freeman's case is critical. If the pre-term infants were too young to be considered viable outside the womb, Freeman can't be charged with murder. And if they were old enough to live outside the womb, but died before Maryland passed its 2005 fetal homicide law, it may not be a crime even if Freeman caused their deaths.
The law, designed to penalize those who kill a pregnant woman or her viable fetus, includes a provision shielding pregnant women from prosecution for actions that result in their own fetus' death.
The exemption, meant to preserve the right to an abortion, hasn't been challenged in the courts, said Denise Burke, vice president and legal director of Americans United for Life, a Chicago-based group that seeks common ground on abortion issues.
Cindy Boersma, legislative director of the American Civil Liberties Union of Maryland, said there is nothing ambiguous about the exemption.
"The only reason the bill passed was because it explicitly contained that exemption," she said.
State Delegate Susan K. McComas, a Republican who co-sponsored the 2005 bill, said the exemption was added by majority Democrats who feared the bill would restrict a woman's right to abortion. "We weren't contemplating a woman doing something to her own fetus," McComas said.
Prosecutors and police concede it could take months to sort out all the physical evidence and determine what charges, if any, may be appropriate for Freeman if the three sets of older remains found in her home and Winnebago belonged to her.
"It may turn into a war of experts, with the prosecution experts saying the fetus was viable and the defense experts saying the fetus was not viable, or it's impossible to know whether the fetus was viable," Baltimore attorney Andrew D. Levy said.
Ocean City Police Chief Bernadette DiPino cited the delicate investigation ahead Tuesday when she explained to reporters why searchers went through dirt from a vacant lot next to Freeman's home shovel by shovel. Video Watch police search with sifters »
"We need to gather as much evidence as we can," she said. Talking about the prosecutor, State's Attorney Joel Todd, she added, "he's going to have a challenging case as it is."
Freeman's longtime boyfriend, Raymond W. Godman Jr., has not been named as a suspect in the case and was staying with the couple's four children at a friend's house, Ocean City Police spokesman Barry Neeb said.
DiPino also said that a specialist planned to examine Freeman to try to find out how she got bruises on her thighs, abdomen and forearm before she was admitted to a hospital Thursday with heavy bleeding.
advertisement
Police want to know whether the bruises were accidental, self-inflicted or caused by someone else. They have not ruled out the possibility of charging someone else if they have reason to suspect someone caused Freeman's stillbirth.
Todd, the prosecutor, has said little about how he plans to proceed. He told reporters Monday that the state "will have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that she did something to cause that baby to be stillborn. |
I think this is sick. I'm a believer that an abortion outside the hospital should be illegal as it puts the mother in danger and also could possibly make the child suffer(depends on how old). If this lady gets off it will be awful. |
|
|
| julien2 |
jail time ?
they should get a reward for not bringing another consumer in this overpopulated consumerist agonizing world |
|
|
|
|
