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How much jail time should women who have abortions get? (pg. 8)
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| djsaekone |
| what about making so it expensive that having to pay the bill is enough punishment? |
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| HardTranceProd |
wow you're giving the COR a lot of credit here with this thread :wtf:
RJT that story about your cousin is just horrendous. i remember you kept telling me how most of the media bull about sex in America was just that - bull, but when it happens in your own backyard, you gotta reconsider...:nervous:
As always the person who got it exactly right in this thread is from Scandinavia (Sweden). I find that Scandinavians have the most liberal attitudes to things like age of consent and abortions.
This forum is dominated by Americans (although this thread won't be, b/c it's intellectual for a change, and not about Slylee's bowel movements, haha) so it's always refreshing to have the rare European input here. |
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| Masonious |
I think the punishment should be public humiliation, public outpourings of pure hatred, jeering, the loss of something that was once a part of you, guilt, shame, self-loathing and the feeling of being an outcast in an ostensibly accepting society.
Wait a second... |
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| Lira |
Point taken, Distant :)
| quote: | Originally posted by RJT
Huh - I've never seen Dennett adapted to the abortion debate, well done, though I think Dennett himself may disagree with your interpretation of his work. In my understanding, his discussion of granting beings that may or may not have a mind the status of mental beings relates moreover to our relation to other, non-human, living things in the world around us.
Still, interesting to see an environmental ethicist/evolutionary philosopher adapted for use in this kind of situation. |
Yeah, I don't think I've ever heard Dennett talking about abortion either (and I don't think he'd necessarily agree with me either :p)... but that book is a great introduction to the Problem of Other Minds, in my opinion, and I reckon its theoretical framework could be expanded to solve similar issues.
The reason why I came to this conclusion, I believe, is because of a dark chapter of Brazilian History. Back when we were a Portuguese colony, and the Catholic Church was the world's political super-power, the pope had ruled that Native Americans were "soul-less" creatures, giving land owners and explorer the right to exploit Native American labour force and even killing the Natives wasn't that much of a problem. They were soul-less, after all.
Fast Forward 3 or 4 centuries: The main world-view shifted from a religious one to a scientific one. Instead of arguing about whether or not Native Americans have souls (which would be rather embarrassing), we can now argue whether or not Native Americans have minds, and whether it is independent from the brain (materialists could just dismiss the existence of a "mind" altogether and consider it a by-product of mental activities). Personally, I have no reason to believe Native Americans are zombies. But I guess you now understand where I'm coming from, and why my point of view might differ from Dennett's even before the argument starts :p
| quote: | Originally posted by Clovis
I can see that POV, but I think the decision should be left up to the mother. To me, this seems the most natural.
But you are probably in the minority among those who aren't pro-choice. You've actually thought about the issue to a good extent. :p |
Yeah, I too used to think that this decision was up to the mother but, have I ever been part of my mother's body? I was certainly inside her, but does that mean I was a part of her? I'm no longer a part of her, and it doesn't seem to have had any major impact on her body (it would be different, for example, if she gave birth to her liver). This is why I can't really read Distant's argument without a sceptical look. |
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| distant |
| quote: | Originally posted by Lira
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Who was that in your previous avatar? That girl was ing cute. |
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| RJT |
| quote: | Originally posted by HardTranceProd
RJT that story about your cousin is just horrendous. i remember you kept telling me how most of the media bull about sex in America was just that - bull, but when it happens in your own backyard, you gotta reconsider...:nervous:
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I think we're comparing apples & oranges when we compare the legalities of sexuality and the culture of sexuality in the United States. While they certainly affect one another, it is my opinion that they are sufficiently different to warrant being addressed separately.
When it comes to the issue of the legality of sexuality, I believe there is legitimately no way I could argue with you regarding whether or not America is unnecessarily conservative and "behind the times" (we are). However, our culture is seeing a vast change in what we deem as sexually acceptable, and I believe you'll find that while it may take a while for our legal system to catch up, in general our acceptance of sexuality is becoming closer and closer in line with the rest of the Western world.
| quote: | Originally posted by Lira
Yeah, I don't think I've ever heard Dennett talking about abortion either (and I don't think he'd necessarily agree with me either )... but that book is a great introduction to the Problem of Other Minds, in my opinion, and I reckon its theoretical framework could be expanded to solve similar issues.
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To be honest, I don't think that from any of the works Dennett has published (and I'm pretty sure I've read most - if not all - of his work. Environmental Ethics pretty much requires it :p) I'd even feel comfortable inferring a stance on the abortion issue - it simply isn't something he addresses.
The neat thing about philosophy, however, is that you can do exactly what you said: expand a theoretical gestalt in an effort to apply it more broadly in your life. In fact, as the aim of any good ethical theory is to be consistent, I'd say you're maybe engaging in one of the highest goods a man can; deciphering a usable ethical framework that is relevant and can be applied to everyday life.
So regardless of my disagreement with your position, I have an infinite level of respect for the amount of thought you've put into it.
:) |
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| Aristronica |
| quote: | Originally posted by weymouth
Some lady nearby magically became non-pregnant recently after like 8 months of pregnancy and people were like wtf? They found the fetus in the house after a search. They then did more of a search and they found another in a trunk in her house and two buried in the backyard. Craaazzy, I hope she gets a ton of time in jail but more than likely the other woman inmates will kill her for what she did. |
this was in Annapolis, the story was on local news couple days ago. |
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| Omega_M |
| Abortion is a matter of choice, always. I saw that video and it's crazy to see all these people rooting for abortion and not having thought it through. The hypocrisy of conservative is astounding. You cannot terminate the growth of an element inside the woman's body, yet you have no qualms of making money by killing people in other countries. |
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| julien2 |
The pro-life are also pro-war
Viva George Bush |
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| Clovis |
| quote: | Originally posted by julien2
The pro-life are also pro-war
Viva George Bush |
They're also pro-poverty.
Rich white girls aren't the ones most in need of abortions. |
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| HardTranceProd |
| quote: | Originally posted by RJT
When it comes to the issue of the legality of sexuality, I believe there is legitimately no way I could argue with you regarding whether or not America is unnecessarily conservative and "behind the times" (we are). However, our culture is seeing a vast change in what we deem as sexually acceptable, and I believe you'll find that while it may take a while for our legal system to catch up, in general our acceptance of sexuality is becoming closer and closer in line with the rest of the Western world.
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I couldn't disagree more.. if anything there is a backlash against sexual freedoms in the US that is spiraling out of control (after a brief period of normalcy in the 60s/70s).
People are a lot more uptight in this country now than they were, to judge from their contemporary reaction to a nipple on TV (remember NYPD Blue used to show some nudity in the 90s), breastfeeding in public, things like that... Hell, a Victoria's Secret store had to close here in the DC area because of complaints!! |
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| RJT |
| quote: | Originally posted by HardTranceProd
I couldn't disagree more.. if anything there is a backlash against sexual freedoms in the US that is spiraling out of control (after a brief period of normalcy in the 60s/70s).
People are a lot more uptight in this country now than they were, to judge from their contemporary reaction to a nipple on TV (remember NYPD Blue used to show some nudity in the 90s), breastfeeding in public, things like that... Hell, a Victoria's Secret store had to close here in the DC area because of complaints!! |
First of all, I want evidence of the Victorias Secret store closing - there's no way I'm just taking your word on that.
Beyond that, you're really taking things incredibly out of context. The uproar over the "nipple slip" during the Super Bowl (an event with an audience including many children), while a bit excessive, was entirely different than an adult television show having nudity. How you can even compare the two is beyond me.
At this point, it seems like you're cherry-picking random pop culture events in U.S. history. None of what you've listed really supports your position at all. |
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