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Shia rape victim sentenced to jail and 200 lashes in Saudi Arabia (pg. 5)
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| Magnetonium |
One thing about this case is ... in Saudi Arabia they usually have pretty strict punishments for criminals. If you steal, you get your hand chopped off. Thats why its true when people joke around about how you can leave your laptop/portfolio in your car unlocked on a street in a city in Saudi Arabia and dont worry about it getting stolen.
But, however, it seems like when it comes to rapes, men are given much more lenient sentences ... I know, I know, its very sadistic, is it not? Why dont they chop off those men's private parts (the tool of the crime), like they do with petty criminals (chopping the hand - tool of the crime)? Why are petty criminals who steal a loaf of bread worse than brutal rapists in Saudi Arabia? Not only are laws in Saudi Arabia are very brutal, inhumane, savage and appalling, they dont even fairly punish the criminals. Thats just sad. If the woman is a victim of a rape, she goes to jail, along with the men who raped her - those men are not stoned to death, but they live. However, if a woman has sex with a stranger, she can legally be murdered / stoned in Saudi Arabia. What I dont understand, is why those men werent stoned to death for having sex with that stranger woman.
I know, I know, I am very twisted, am I not? I am just trying to see into the eyes of a beast. Saudi Arabia's legal system and human rights systems are really really messed up. No way I am ever going there, not even if I am offered a huge oil contract!!! |
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| George Smiley |
| quote: | Originally posted by Moral Hazard
Generally, I hate when people try to parrallel a current event to pre-WWII circumstances but I do have to correct you here. Germany was in no way shape or form a power let alone a super power during the intewar period. No military, stagflation, decreased industrial capacity... they were for all intents and purposes a third world country prior to the National Socialists taking power. |
I hate it too. And the only reason it was brought up in the first place is because Floster thinks that Iran somehow compares to Nazi Germany, and could somehow hope to compete at a similar level - they quite clearly cannot and will not ever.
My point about Germany still stands because I made a point of saying comparatively. The effects of the Wall Street crash were felt the world over. Most of the traditional powers were on an equal footing. Germany always had the potential to recover back to pre-Crash status, as did all the other industrial powers. Iran simply does not have that potential, comparative to the established world powers right now... |
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| shaolin_Z |
| quote: | Originally posted by Magnetonium
One thing about this case is ... in Saudi Arabia they usually have pretty strict punishments for criminals. If you steal, you get your hand chopped off. Thats why its true when people joke around about how you can leave your laptop/portfolio in your car unlocked on a street in a city in Saudi Arabia and dont worry about it getting stolen.
But, however, it seems like when it comes to rapes, men are given much more lenient sentences ... I know, I know, its very sadistic, is it not? Why dont they chop off those men's private parts (the tool of the crime), like they do with petty criminals (chopping the hand - tool of the crime)? Why are petty criminals who steal a loaf of bread worse than brutal rapists in Saudi Arabia? Not only are laws in Saudi Arabia are very brutal, inhumane, savage and appalling, they dont even fairly punish the criminals. Thats just sad. If the woman is a victim of a rape, she goes to jail, along with the men who raped her - those men are not stoned to death, but they live. However, if a woman has sex with a stranger, she can legally be murdered / stoned in Saudi Arabia. What I dont understand, is why those men werent stoned to death for having sex with that stranger woman.
I know, I know, I am very twisted, am I not? I am just trying to see into the eyes of a beast. Saudi Arabia's legal system and human rights systems are really really messed up. No way I am ever going there, not even if I am offered a huge oil contract!!! |
Saudi Arabia is the epitome of everything I despise, like most Muslims who're acutally relatively informed about their religion. |
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| George Smiley |
| quote: | Originally posted by fayraree
why is it that everyone who discusses this issue on TA (COR, PDD) always takes the punishment out of context? Is every TA so ing stupid and blind that they can't let their personal bigotry get in the way with the facts of the case?
The woman didn't get punished for being raped, FFS, read the article and then start your anti-Islamic tirade.
:rolleyes: |
Actually yea, you're right, she was sentenced for associating with men, I take back everything I said, the sentence DEFINITELY fit the crime and DEFINITELY had nothing whatsoever to do with Islamic law
:rolleyes: |
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| shaolin_Z |
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
Actually yea, you're right, she was sentenced for associating with men, I take back everything I said, the sentence DEFINITELY fit the crime and DEFINITELY had nothing whatsoever to do with Islamic law
:rolleyes: |
Actually, it doesn't have anything to do with "Islamic Law." That's like saying eugenics is a fundamental doctrine of atheism or something. |
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| George Smiley |
| quote: | Originally posted by shaolin_Z
Actually, it doesn't have anything to do with "Islamic Law." That's like saying eugenics is a fundamental doctrine of atheism or something. |
A fair point I suppose, but as someone who has never read the Koran I'd have to take your word for it, altho, like most religions, I'm pretty sure the holy books try to screw women as much as is possible...religion, after all, was written by men for men...
Look at all the controversy when women are appointed as vicars, it stems from an extreme belief, enshrined in interpretations of their religion, that men are superior. Like I said, I haven't read the Koran but I would be surprised if there weren't equivalents in Islam.
Of course, that is very general and only explains why those who have extreme religious beliefs would see women as inferior, it's certainly not specific in that I am certain that there is no verse in the Koran that states the punishment for being in a car with strange men is punishable by 90 lashes... |
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| shaolin_Z |
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
A fair point I suppose, but as someone who has never read the Koran I'd have to take your word for it, altho, like most religions, I'm pretty sure the holy books try to screw women as much as is possible...religion, after all, was written by men for men...
Look at all the controversy when women are appointed as vicars, it stems from an extreme belief, enshrined in interpretations of their religion, that men are superior. Like I said, I haven't read the Koran but I would be surprised if there weren't equivalents in Islam.
Of course, that is very general and only explains why those who have extreme religious beliefs would see women as inferior, it's certainly not specific in that I am certain that there is no verse in the Koran that states the punishment for being in a car with strange men is punishable by 90 lashes... |
I assure you in Islam it isn't anything like that. Anyone who quotes isolated verses out of context (which is a pretty common and popular way of effectively obscuring anyone's understand of any religion when it is presented as such to someone who isn't familiar with the said religion) and fails to put it in context of countless other teaching and phylisophical aspect of the religion is doing nothing more than being disingenuos, eigther out of a pre-conceived bias or plain ignorance and/or understanding. Men and women are of equal spiritual worth in Islam, with an equal right to education, spiritual and intellectual pursuits. Women didn't enjoy property rights, inheritence, the ability to choose their partner for marriage etc. in the pre-Islamic Arab world, things that have only been introduced to us in the West in the last 100 yrs or so. The issue is a lot more complex and requires some extensive studying in order to understand it beyond a simplistic false perception based on the ever so popular slanderous mechanism of selective quoting out of context and with out being veiwed wholisticly in reference to other portions of the text. There's no heirarchy or church system to begin with so that right of the bat distinguishes it from most 'organized' religions, especially when it comes to a male dominated tradition in religion. The prophets daugther Fatima for example was a well respected scholar who men (and women) seeked religious council in they had questions, his first wife Khadija was a successful merchant who owned her own business (Muhammad used to work for her which is how they met btw).
So I certainly would equate Saudi Arabia or it's backward practices that contradict some fundamentals with Islam to begin with. Unfortunately, many people's perception of it is based on media coverage of place like Afghanistan under the Taliban or Saudi Arabia (and now "terrorism"). So that certainly doesn't help.
You don't have to take anyone's word for anything btw, especially if you're not very familiar with something to begin with. I'm pretty srue you don't really do that with other topics. You're free to research any subject like anyone else :D. I don't understand why (not saying you're doing this btw) why anyone has to generalize one religious dogma to another and make assumptions about a completely different religion based on that. Yeah, it does take quite a bit of effort to study and understand such an expanise subject, especially if you haven't had much exposure to religion to begin with (particuarly in your formative years) and are used to a pre-existing cultural stigmata toward religion in general to begin with (which would be most of Europe and I'd argue a good portion of the US aswell, the West in general). |
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| zoogla |
First off, in response to Halcyon and Mr. Smiley above: I agree. Just for associating with the opposite sex, I personally don't believe a lashing is justified, according to my personal beliefs. I'm not a Muslim scholar or anything, so I would have to read the relevant sections of the Quran, hadith (Prophet's sayings), and tafseer (contextualization of the Quran, which gives explanations for each verse and what the context was for that verse, given the current circumstances in the society at that time). After performing this due diligence, I would be in a position to actually say whether the anti-segregation punishment is justified, under Islamic principles.
Often, as has been pointed out in the COR discussion of this issue the law is Saudi Arabia isn't necessarily Islamic law, but rather based on centuries of tribal traditions of the bedouin people living in the Arabian peninsula. Again, I can't prove that the "lashings-for-sitting-in-a-car" are justifiable in an Islamic perspective, but I do know that I should perform more diligence before writing these actions off as another deficiency of this "barbaric religion". :rolleyes: You've heard it before, that Islam is a religion of peace, so I won't bore you with those details.
| quote: | Originally posted by Magnetonium
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What I dont understand, is why those men werent stoned to death for having sex with that stranger woman. |
That's an excellent question to ask. I had the same question, because the punishment for pre-marital sex (forced or not) is death by stoning. Read the article carefully:
| quote: | | The rapists also had their prison terms doubled. But the sentences are still low considering they could have faced the death penalty. |
Not sure what the reason is for the low sentences; but I give the judges the benefit of the doubt because based on the principles of law and centuries of tradition that are "just" in that society, the sentence should be fair. Again, Saudi Arabia is a land where women are treated as second-class citizens and are forced to keep themselves covered and ... (to be continued)
| quote: | Originally posted by shaolin_Z
Saudi Arabia is the epitome of everything I despise, like most Muslims who're acutally relatively informed about their religion. |
lol :wtf: |
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| pkcRAISTLIN |
| quote: | Originally posted by shaolin_Z
I assure you in Islam it isn't anything like that. Anyone who quotes isolated verses out of context (which is a pretty common and popular way of effectively obscuring anyone's understand of any religion when it is presented as such to someone who isn't familiar with the said religion) and fails to put it in context of countless other teaching and phylisophical aspect of the religion is doing nothing more than being disingenuos, eigther out of a pre-conceived bias or plain ignorance and/or understanding. |
But this does not stop fanatics from declaring their version of islam is the one and true way and justify oppression and murder under the guise of religious doctrine. As dawkins notes, mainstream religion is the cesspool from where fanaticism is born. He might not have used the cesspool term though ;)
what is there inherent in islam (or any religion really) that shows that shaolin_z's understanding of the faith is the true/intended version, and those that preach hate and intolerance are the heretics, rather than the other way round? |
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| shaolin_Z |
Haha, I just knew you'd have a comment or two about that :D.
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
But this does not stop fanatics from declaring their version of islam is the one and true way and justify oppression and murder under the guise of religious doctrine. As dawkins notes, mainstream religion is the cesspool from where fanaticism is born. He might not have used the cesspool term though ;) |
Agreed, but that also applies to non-secular ideological and political doctrines.
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
what is there inherent in islam (or any religion really) that shows that shaolin_z's understanding of the faith is the true/intended version, and those that preach hate and intolerance are the heretics, rather than the other way round? |
Oh man, you do realize that would be a book intself, just dicussing this one aspect of it. I certainly don't have the time to get in to that, esepically these days on an online message board, hence my comments of people doing their research ;). |
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| Flotser |
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
I hate it too. And the only reason it was brought up in the first place is because Floster thinks that Iran somehow compares to Nazi Germany, and could somehow hope to compete at a similar level - they quite clearly cannot and will not ever.
My point about Germany still stands because I made a point of saying comparatively. The effects of the Wall Street crash were felt the world over. Most of the traditional powers were on an equal footing. Germany always had the potential to recover back to pre-Crash status, as did all the other industrial powers. Iran simply does not have that potential, comparative to the established world powers right now... |
As soon as Iran has Nuclear weapons and the ability to attack the west with it (using missiles/terror organization/etc.) the picture will change drastically. They can start doing really crazy things and the world will be afraid to react. |
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