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Bulls**t doesn't change anything (political thread)... (pg. 10)
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| Stasis |
You lose credibility as a calm, collected, thoughtful person when you declare the other side "fascists."
Would you feel like a conservative made a reasonable point if he called us liberals, "Socialists"? |
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| jashic |
| quote: | | I read a good 2 and a half pages of it and I can't for the life of me get past the fact that Andrew Sullivan is just another blogger.... It's someone's opinion, just like us, and he just happens to be one of the known most vocal Obama fanboys... |
Andrew Sullivan is a republican. The fact that he is an Obama fanboy says a lot about the "uniting" capability of Obama. Tell me one republican blogger, radio host, talk show host, etc that supports Hillary.
| quote: | | This isn't a public relations campaign, this is our country!!! The Clinton administration was one of the closest administrations to coming up with peace in the Middle East... They love him over there, and YES, I am admitting that Bill will be very much part of Hillary's success... To think that seeing a face on TV is going to make the difference is just naive, and it's views like that that scare me to hell!! |
Ever read the comments left by those in the Middle East on BBC news? The middle east hates clinton just as much as bush. In fact, they are referenced together...e.g., The bush/clintons blah blah...
| quote: | | Say what you want about how polarizing Hillary is, but the real divide is this whole "movement" that he's started... |
The "movement" you mention is a movement to get people to actually care about the government. Your logic is, why make them care when they will all be disappointed? That's a awfully cynical way of looking at it. That's probably why you lean hillary. Hillary's motto is "the world is a ed up place. there is no hope. there is nothing you can do but fight back. I'm a fighter in this hellhole of a world. so vote for me". Sorry Hillary, I don't share that view. I've had enough of that with Bush/Cheney. If I wanted more of that, I would support a 3rd term for Bush.
| quote: | | A big "+1" for that!!! It's the people who "hate" Hillary, but don't really have reasons why, and won't support her if she's the nominee, they're the ones that irk me.. |
How about this as a reason? I think she's fake. She's in it for herself. She doesn't care for the people, only that she becomes the first woman president. Is there proof of it? No. But she bugs me. I dont find her trustworthy. Her crying at that lunch in NH was one of the fakest thigns I've seen anyone do, even in friends/acquaintences. Anything to get a vote. Change her views? sure! Change her ethics? Sure! Change her gender? Sure!
Can I prove any of above with statistics? No. But being an independent and not right/left at all, I find it interesting that I feel this way. I'm not a hillary hater. I'm just telling you how she makes me feel. And this is before looking at her voting record, blah blah blah. If she wins, I vote McCain. Does that "irk" you? Why? Because I'm not voting the same way you do? You're just like any other democrat/republican...call ppl "haters" for not voting your way. The condescending tone in all of your replies basically make you just like the rest of the fanboys of obama/hillary/mccain. |
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| jashic |
There is a simple reason why I lean Obama. Nothing more.
He makes ppl pay attention to government.
This is HUGE. After nearly 12 years of not caring, ppl have finally woken up. Once you get ppl to care, they start caring how their local representives vote. They'll start the change because they start to not take lightly the votes that don't represent the ppl. This causes representatives to be more accountable to the people. Lobbyists start losing some power. Unions, Corporations, etc all start to lose power. Power goes back to the people.
I don't care if Obama is a republican or democrat, if he's able to get ppl to care about government again, he's got my vote. I don't care if he has no experience. I'll leave that to his staff. |
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| jashic |
Can someone tell me what Bill Clinton accomplished as president?
All I can think of is:
- 3 "mini" unauthorized "wars/conflicts"
- He did nothing while genocide was happening in Rwanda
- He let Osama Bin Laden go when he coulda killed him
- Whitewater scandal
- He cheated on his wife (not that I care. I only care because she was FUGLY)
Holy cow. It's a mirror image of Bush!
- bush took the country to 2 wars
- he did nothing while genocide was happening in Darfur
- He let Osama Bin Laden go in Afghanistan and decided Saddam was more important
- Wiretapping/secret torture prison scandal
- He didn't cheat on his wife though.
If another clinton/bush gets elected, I'm moving to Canada and invading the US. |
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| Hassassin |
| quote: | Originally posted by jashic
If another clinton/bush gets elected, I'm moving to Canada and invading the US. |
please email me a copy of enlistment papers |
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| Hassassin |
| quote: | Originally posted by jashic
There is a simple reason why I lean Obama. Nothing more.
He makes ppl pay attention to government.
This is HUGE. After nearly 12 years of not caring, ppl have finally woken up. Once you get ppl to care, they start caring how their local representives vote. They'll start the change because they start to not take lightly the votes that don't represent the ppl. This causes representatives to be more accountable to the people. Lobbyists start losing some power. Unions, Corporations, etc all start to lose power. Power goes back to the people.
I don't care if Obama is a republican or democrat, if he's able to get ppl to care about government again, he's got my vote. I don't care if he has no experience. I'll leave that to his staff. |
I think your analysis of the Obama movement is a bit too idealistic here. If this so called Obama-mania has woken up the long time sleeping American public into the domestic & foreign political spheres... then they would also be able to read through the BS he spouts out... which is pure demagoguery. He claims to fight against the 'lobbyists' and 'corporate fat cats', yet he's being HUGELY funded by financial groups like Morgan Stanley & JP Moragan Chase.
And lets face it... just because an individual opens up a certain facet of life to the public DOES NOT MEAN that they are the best candidate to represent that cause.
Maybe its just me, but i thought George Bush was the prime example of an individual who should have clearly illustrated what happens when the American public disregards their duties as citizens of a 'so-called' democratic nation.
-Elections stolen in 2000 & 2004
-illegal wars
(and everything else you had mentioned above)
As someone who was blinded by the theatrics of the American political system for a very long time (as many still are as can be clearly seen), it takes more than 1 incompetent figure with horrible speeches and 1 black guy with 'pretty' speeches to educate the general public as to what is actually going on in their country behind closed doors... as well as how their policies affect billions of people worldwide.
READ A BOOK AMERICA!
AND NOT CULTURE WARRIOR! |
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| jashic |
| Oh yeah, Bill Clinton enacted NAFTA. Of which, Hillary was an ardent supporter until about 3 weeks ago. Where did it happen? Oh yeah, the Ohio debate. |
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| jashic |
| quote: | Originally posted by Hassassin
I think your analysis of the Obama movement is a bit too idealistic here. If this so called Obama-mania has woken up the long time sleeping American public into the domestic & foreign political spheres... then they would also be able to read through the BS he spouts out... which is pure demagoguery. He claims to fight against the 'lobbyists' and 'corporate fat cats', yet he's being HUGELY funded by financial groups like Morgan Stanley & JP Moragan Chase.
And lets face it... just because an individual opens up a certain facet of life to the public DOES NOT MEAN that they are the best candidate to represent that cause.
Maybe its just me, but i thought George Bush was the prime example of an individual who should have clearly illustrated what happens when the American public disregards their duties as citizens of a 'so-called' democratic nation.
-Elections stolen in 2000 & 2004
-illegal wars
(and everything else you had mentioned above)
As someone who was blinded by the theatrics of the American political system for a very long time (as many still are as can be clearly seen), it takes more than 1 incompetent figure with horrible speeches and 1 black guy with 'pretty' speeches to educate the general public as to what is actually going on in their country behind closed doors... as well as how their policies affect billions of people worldwide.
READ A BOOK AMERICA!
AND NOT CULTURE WARRIOR! |
It's definitely an idealistic view. I don't pretend that it isn't. But what is the other view we can vote for? The fatalistic view that Clinton is spouting. "We are in danger! Vote for me!". If given a choice between the two, I'd choose the idealistic one. We have 8 years of fear based politics. I'd like to try a different approach. If it doesn't work, I'll be the first person to vote the other way in 4 years. |
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| jashic |
Here's another way of looking at it:
Obama and Clinton, in the last few years voted almost the exact same way. They have almost the same healthcare plan except one is forced while the other is a choice. They will both raise taxes (if they say they won't, they are lying). They will both try and pull us out of Iraq prematurely.
Clinton's past experience shows nothing. Obama has no past experience. So, if either of them was president in the last 8 years, we would be in the same place regardless of whether hillary or obama was president. Except, with clinton, we'd be at war with Iraq and with Obama, we wouldn't.
That's ing huge.
Experience means nothing. You're only as good as your last few big decisions. |
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| Hassassin |
| quote: | Originally posted by jashic
Here's another way of looking at it:
Obama and Clinton, in the last few years voted almost the exact same way. They have almost the same healthcare plan except one is forced while the other is a choice. They will both raise taxes (if they say they won't, they are lying). They will both try and pull us out of Iraq prematurely.
Clinton's past experience shows nothing. Obama has no past experience. So, if either of them was president in the last 8 years, we would be in the same place regardless of whether hillary or obama was president. Except, with clinton, we'd be at war with Iraq and with Obama, we wouldn't.
That's ing huge.
Experience means nothing. You're only as good as your last few big decisions. |
agreed
My vote will now go for either ron paul or ralph nader... the only 2 real candidates with real policies and truth to back them up. |
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| Stassi |
| quote: | Originally posted by jashic
Experience means nothing. You're only as good as your last few big decisions. |
you can't be serious with that statement.
im sure it sounds cool but its complete bs. |
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| DJ Eco |
| quote: | Originally posted by jashic
Can someone tell me what Bill Clinton accomplished as president? |
Well, where should I start? I'm not an idiot you know... I may have been five when he was elected but I read....
WHAT HAS BILL DONE?
- helped with the cease fire in Northern Ireland
- got rid of nuclear weapons left by Soviets in the former Soviet countries (Ukraine, Uzbek, etc.)
- kept North Korea's nuclear ambitions tame, compared to now
- played a huge role in making a stronger Europe and strengthened NATO
- imposed the strictest Administration ethics guidelines in the nation's history
- did his best on reforming lobbying practices for the first time in half a century
- greatly launched our relationship with China and Japan, which, if played right by his successor, could have resulted better for us
- Family/Medical Leave Act of 1993
- increased breast cancer research by 65%
- huge increase of recycling programs
- Assault Weapons Ban
- Drug-Free Schools
- 8 years of peace and progress
- took the Federal budget from a $290 billion, the biggest in American history, and finished his last term with a SURPLUS of, I believe, $300 billion or more
- Clinton's plan to take down the debt (with $360 billion paid back in only his last three years) would have gotten America out of debt by 2010
- 22 million new jobs from 1993-2000
- unemployment rate was lowest in 3 decades
- lowest poverty rate in 2 decades
- HOPE scholarships given to 10 million families sending kids off to college
- lowest crime rate in 25 years
- as a New Yorker, you should know that the Federal budget increase he helped provide, and increased funding to states, he made New York thrive. Rudy Giuliani was as good a mayor as the resulting $$$$ from Bill Clinton's programs allowed him to be; just look at Manhattan, and the surrounding areas. Jersey City boomed. Brooklyn boomed. Newark boomed. Waterfront areas boomed. Manhattan shot through the roof. That's a direct relationship between increased funding that was a result of Clinton's budget surplus.
WHAT HAS HILLARY DONE
- chaired Children's Defense Fund
- extended period of unemployment assistance to victims of 9/11
- fought for and won more funding for city projects after 9/11
- fought for aid to caregivers taking care of ill or aging families: tax benefits, funding, etc.
- has been fighting for healthcare reform for decades, don't say Barack's 1-year-old idea has less kinks than hers
- spending 8 years in the White House IS experience, I don't care what the hell you say
- as First Lady, extended the federal after-shool program to $1 billion. I was a product of the after-school programs as a result, and it kept me out of trouble
- before people saw her as "that bitch", most New Yorkers had to admit that she was doing one hell of a job, and she was.
That, my friend, is what one of our country's best Presidents, and yes, his wife, did during his 8 years and her 5 years respectively, and that's only what I can remember off the top of my head (plus 4 or 5 that I needed to search for numbers on)... You, your family, and EVERYONE else on this forum, was better off then than they are now... Now that I answered your brainbuster, please answer me what Barack Obama has done. |
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