|
Wah wah! I hate paying for stuff!! (pg. 14)
|
View this Thread in Original format
| justin |
you're an oxy moron.
that is all |
|
|
| iammesol |
| Oh, stop. Why are you in such a bad mood? :p |
|
|
| justin |
| I need humor lessons apparently |
|
|
| iammesol |
| I was talking to Frenchie. |
|
|
| Frenchie |
| quote: | Originally posted by justin
you're an oxy moron.
that is all |
Really? Fabtastic!:) |
|
|
| Moral Hazard |
| quote: | Originally posted by emc^2
The single ignorant comment you made about having too much dependence on oil outweights anything assinine I can say for the rest of the year. I am willing to bet that at this very moment you're either wearing or sitting next to number of things that would not be possible without oil.
Here are some
Car Fuel/Diesel - what about bio-diesel, ethonal, and natural gas?
Aviation fuel for planes
Credit cards - could easily be made from a number of other materials
Plastic bags - replace with paper or cloth... or use the corn starch bags
Hair brushes - strange, these existed long before plastic... I wonder what they were made of... oh, yeah, wood/metal/bone/etc.
Carpets - existed before plastics, can be made of natural fibres
Boats - um... wood, fibreglass, metal
Glue - many adhesives do not require petrolium
Toilet Seats - again... um, wood
Shampoo - replace with soap
Household paint - can be made with alternates
Detergent - replace with soap
Bowls - WHAT? China, stoneware, clay, wood... Damn man, Homo Erectus had in' bowls and absolutely no oil refineries
Fertiliser - seriously... because manuer and potash aren't good enough anymore?
Explosives (that one we can do without) - can be made without petroleum
Tires - were initially made from rubber... like from a tree
Artificial turf - why in god's name is this necessary?
Sneakers, shoes, flipflops - again, shoes existed before petroleum was used in their production.
Lipstick - not necessary; however, can be made from animal derivitives (in fact, the good stuff is).
Weed killer (that one is trivial, eh Rob? depends in which sense) - as you said, trivial... also unnecessary if proper gardening techniques are employed
Parachutes - were origionally made of silk... I don't think any petroleum is used in the production of silk worms
Umbrellas - pre-date petroleum, can be made from other materials
Food wrappers - not really necessary but there are non-petroleum options
Shower curtains - can be made from any number of fabrics (mine are cotton)
Waterproof coats - really, there are no water resistant materials other then plastics?
Roads - concrete
Bubble wrap - replace with wood shavings or paper
Drink bottles - aluminum (that's what I have)
Toothbrushes - pre-date plastics
Fishing line - pre-date plastics
Tennis rackets - seriously... this is a big concern? Regardless, can be made from non-petroleum based products
Roller blades - A world without roller blades... THE HORROR!
Eye glasses - glass
Lunch boxes - metal
Flower pots - are you in' kidding...
Toys - No really, that wasn't rhetorical, are you in' kidding?
Insulation - fibreglass
Nail polish - not really a concern; however, nail polish existed well before people used oil to make it... like thousands of years before.
Hair spray - :stongue:
Golf balls - again, pre-dates the use of plastic to make them
Shopping bags - see plastic bags
Turntable mats - leather
...and so on. |
very few of the things you listed actually need oil (see my edits). If we were to eliminate or even reduce the amount of petroleum used in the production of these things where possible it would result in significantly more oil being available for use in the things that really do need to be made from petroleum products. This would both reduce demand for oil and with that the price as well as extend the lifespan of this resource so that it may be utilized well into the future. Sadly, $118/barrel oil isn't quite enough to make most people start to look for alternatives, which is why I would love to see that price continue to rise. Personally, I'm fine with using stoneware, silk parachutes, metal water botles, and manuer on my lawn. I think the fact that you would post a list including so many products for which oil is not really necessary to produce as an argument in your favour shows that you've not really though about this issue and that RJT is right... you don't want change, you just want lower prices so that everything can continue as it was 10 years ago. I'm sorry to tell you this; it's time to change... you can either get on board or you can get dragged kicking and screaming; however, change will come and it doesn't really matter how you feel about it. |
|
|
| emc^2 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Moral Hazard
very few of the things you listed actually need oil (see my edits). If we were to eliminate or even reduce the amount of petroleum used in the production of these things where possible it would result in significantly more oil being available for use in the things that really do need to be made from petroleum products. This would both reduce demand for oil and with that the price as well as extend the lifespan of this resource so that it may be utilized well into the future. |
Agreed. To add, many of these things pollute the planet. I personally would love to see a day when an environmentally-friendly replacement for plastic is found... or at least some sort of effective recycling system is in place, which will reduce the world-wide need for output of plastic.
| quote: | | Sadly, $118/barrel oil isn't quite enough to make most people start to look for alternatives, which is why I would love to see that price continue to rise. |
Be careful what you wish for... that's a very near-sighted statement. While it may push people to start considering different methods, the change will not happen overnight. Meanwhile, MILLIONS would suffer the consequences of higher costs. Job loss, recession (even depression), increased poverty (which is also linked with increase in crime), and various other economic fall out. Keep in mind that it's a very slippery slope and many things are interconnected. Sure you can make an argument that many of the things we take for granted and don't actually need can go. However, consider the effects on the global economy. I am sure you can agree that the recession is no longer limited to one country - the impact of recession in US is felt world-wide due to nature of global economics. Sure, many parts of the world are unaffected but the ones that are affected do feel it. Furthermore, in US the effect of higher oil prices is forcing many businesses to close and many people to lose jobs. Push it high enough and you've pushed a global economy into a depression.
| quote: |
Personally, I'm fine with using stoneware, silk parachutes, metal water botles, and manuer on my lawn.
|
I avoid "artificial" elements as much as possible - I use glass, china, iron skillets, and other non-plastic items. I agree, we can definitely do with less pollutants.
| quote: |
I think the fact that you would post a list including so many products for which oil is not really necessary to produce as an argument in your favour shows that you've not really though about this issue and that RJT is right... you don't want change, you just want lower prices so that everything can continue as it was 10 years ago. |
The list was provided to show which items are made with oil. I'm sure each and every one of us can find at least 4 or 5 of those items (excluding gas) that we're using or come in contact with on daily basis. The statement that RJT made is in my sig - you can clearly see that he did not say we can do with less. He said we can get rid of it all together, without providing any alternatives. I've yet to hear his plan for making do without cars, planes, and other fuel-consuming modes of conveyance in today's day and age. I'd like to live in Utopia but let's face it - imagine our world today if all the sudden no oil was available AT ALL. All cars, planes, trucks, tractors, etc. just vanished. What do you think would be the impact?
| quote: |
I'm sorry to tell you this; it's time to change... you can either get on board or you can get dragged kicking and screaming; however, change will come and it doesn't really matter how you feel about it. |
I dare you to find an argument or comment I made which contradicts the fact that change is needed? Also, please point out anything that made you conclude all these wrong notions about me.
;) |
|
|
| Moral Hazard |
| quote: | Originally posted by emc^2
Be careful what you wish for... that's a very near-sighted statement. While it may push people to start considering different methods, the change will not happen overnight. Meanwhile, MILLIONS would suffer the consequences of higher costs. Job loss, recession (even depression), increased poverty (which is also linked with increase in crime), and various other economic fall out. Keep in mind that it's a very slippery slope and many things are interconnected. Sure you can make an argument that many of the things we take for granted and don't actually need can go. However, consider the effects on the global economy. I am sure you can agree that the recession is no longer limited to one country - the impact of recession in US is felt world-wide due to nature of global economics. Sure, many parts of the world are unaffected but the ones that are affected do feel it. Furthermore, in US the effect of higher oil prices is forcing many businesses to close and many people to lose jobs. Push it high enough and you've pushed a global economy into a depression. |
Here's where we differ... You think that I've made a short cited statement in wanting higher oil prices; whereas, I think you have made a short cited statement in focusing on economic impact. Sure there will be some short-term economic loss; however, creating new technologies, new products, new materials, new industrial processes, etc. will generate a great deal of revenue and create a great many jobs... probably enough to offset those lost. Retooling plants, increased R&D, retraining of personal, all these activities will result in an economic boom for nations with the resources to turn the corner. After a decade or two the economy will stabalize and in return we will be well equipped to prosper going forward rather then languishing with our old ways receiving ever decreasing returns on our investments, ever decreasing productivity, only to run into an extreme scarcity of oil and have to change our way of life in a panic rather then at a reasonable pace. You're looking 5 years, I'm looking 20.
| quote: |
I dare you to find an argument or comment I made which contradicts the fact that change is needed? Also, please point out anything that made you conclude all these wrong notions about me.
|
My impression of you is really based on the totality of what you've wrote in this thread and the gas prices one. If you're telling me I've read you wrong then I'll take you at your word as I have little reason to doubt you and how you feel is really immaterial to me (I'm not being dismissive here, just honest). |
|
|
| XaNaX |
| quote: | Originally posted by Moral Hazard
Sadly, $118/barrel oil isn't quite enough to make most people start to look for alternatives, which is why I would love to see that price continue to rise. |
I agree with you here, however there is a problem. The people who drive expensive large SUVs and expensive performance cars that get poor gas mileage can better absorb the increased price of gas than the average Joe. If you can afford $50K+ for an H2 or $100K+ for some big V12 Mercedes you can afford $5, $6, even $7+ a gallon to put gas in it. However the middle class and those people already driving cars getting 30mpg are getting ed in the ass with no grease by these people driving cars that get 1/3 of the mileage but don't give a because they can still afford the gas. Why in the hell should I have to pay $3.75 a gallon because some jackass thinks it is his right to drive around in a truck that is 3 times the size of my car and gets 10mpg. os like this are wasting gas and driving up the price for everyone. And the increasing price of gas isn't going to get these people to move to a more reasonable vehicle.
What the government needs to do is make the Gas Guzzler tax something more than a joke. Right now the max tax you pay is $7700 for a vehicle that gets less than 12.5 mpg. that, I say if you buy a vehicle getting that bad of gas mileage the tax should be 200% of the cost of the vehicle. See how many s keep buying those ridiculous trucks and cars if they cost three times what they cost right now. And take that tax money and use it for tax credits for people buying cars getting 30 mpg or more. |
|
|
| Moral Hazard |
| quote: | Originally posted by XaNaX
What the government needs to do is make the Gas Guzzler tax something more than a joke. Right now the max tax you pay is $7700 for a vehicle that gets less than 12.5 mpg. that, I say if you buy a vehicle getting that bad of gas mileage the tax should be 200% of the cost of the vehicle. See how many s keep buying those ridiculous trucks and cars if they cost three times what they cost right now. And take that tax money and use it for tax credits for people buying cars getting 30 mpg or more. |
Would you support a carbon tax applied to all greenhouse gas producing products? |
|
|
| XaNaX |
| quote: | Originally posted by Moral Hazard
Would you support a carbon tax applied to all greenhouse gas producing products? |
I dunno if I would go that far yet. There is still some question as to the impact of greenhouse gases (sorry Al Gore). However, there is no question that there is a limited amount of oil/gas and some s are wasting it just because they can and they are driving the price up for all of us. Those people purchasing oil/gas wasting products (low mpg cars/trucks, private jets, large boats, massive homes, etc) should pay a massive tax to discourage their purchase since it is obvious that high fuel prices won't do it. |
|
|
| UWM |
| quote: | Originally posted by XaNaX
I dunno if I would go that far yet. There is still some question as to the impact of greenhouse gases (sorry Al Gore). However, there is no question that there is a limited amount of oil/gas and some s are wasting it just because they can and they are driving the price up for all of us. Those people purchasing oil/gas wasting products (low mpg cars/trucks, private jets, large boats, massive homes, etc) should pay a massive tax to discourage their purchase since it is obvious that high fuel prices won't do it. |
I doubt the government is going to go running around setting exorbitant taxes on such things when the petroleum corporations' collective hands are so deep in their pockets. |
|
|
|
|
