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The Official 2008-2009 NBA/Toronto Raptors Discussion Thread (pg. 35)
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| infinity HiGH |
| quote: | Originally posted by MarkT
2. They need a good shooter at the SG position who routinely practices good shot selection. they don't have that. Spreading the D only is effective if good ball movement is constantly practiced and the Raps fail to do that too. How many times do witness the open man ignored with someone instead taking a terrible shot? |
They have a good shooter. His name in Anthony Parker. As I've said before the whole team is built with "good" shooters. Calderon? Shooter. Kapono? Shooter. Bosh? Shooter. Bargnani? Shooter. How the heck do you expect the teams problems to be addressed by adding ANOTHER shooter? They need an athletic, dynamic SG that can drive and create. One who isn't afraid of contact.
| quote: | | 3. Bosh is undersized and weak? I sure don't know about that. What he lacks in sheer strength, he makes up for in agility and range. Bosh is undefendable by most guys, one-on-one (Dwight is a clear exception). If you figure that at least one opposing big man has to move further out to cover Bargnani, there should be additional opportunities for Bosh and Marion inside. |
Yes, it's pretty clear he's weak physically and mentally; thus he's undersized for a position that is as much about size as it is about athleticism. He's got a wide variety of moves on offense but his lack of strength has him at a disadvantage against real PF's that are competent on defense. And Bosh dominates Dwight.
| quote: | | most problems stem not from the personnel...but a failure to stick to a game plan with good ball movement, IMHO. not an easy thing, but I think the Raps have the talent to play SO much better. They are mentally weak as a team and further trades isn't going to help them gel. |
They're definitely better on paper than their record shows but assuming a best case scenario they're still not Top 5 worthy in the East. They're too unbalanced talent-wise and the mental weakness just holds them back. They rely on jump shots to get them back into the game. The only person that attacks the rim is Joey and to a lesser extent Marion whenever Calderon actually decides to pass it to him.
| quote: | curious to know who your 'top 5' PG would be ;)
then consider whether or not any PG other than CP3 or Deron are arguably a short-term fix or on the decline (Nash, Kidd) and therefore not as good a fit long-term as Jose...since this team isn't winning this year or next. Unless CP3 or Deron are replacing him, I'll argue that the Raps are perhaps downgrading at PG by dealing Jose.
dealing Jose makes sense if you have a player in waiting and Ukic is waaaaay too unproven to start next year. deal him for a big-time SG and acquire a 'decent' veteran PG to bring along Ukic? maybe, but I wouldn't. |
Top 5? CP3, Deron, Billups, Rondo, Rose, Tony Parker, Steve Nash, Jason Kidd, Jameer Nelson and possibly Westbrook (hardly seen him play).
As for them "downgrading" at PG it really depends who they get back, who else is dealt, who they draft, etc. 1 option could be them bringing in a vet. PG to play alongside Ukic. Or drafting somebody like Ricky Rubio who has way more upside. Or just wait it out and see what the situation is like after next season and focus on addressing other problems. How about signing Mike Biddy in the off season and dealing Jose+someone else for another type of player/players that we need? Eg that athletic swingman we so desperately need.
| quote: | dump Bosh? ok...then who replaces him at PF and how are they an upgrade?
btw...you just called Bosh undersized and weak, but are suggesting that Lee is a viable C? come on now, lol! Lee scores and rebounds. He doesn't block and doesn't have the range of skills of either Bosh or Bargnani. |
Going back to the whole "shooters" thing; how do you expect Bosh and Marion to dominate the paint when their games aren't suited for that? Yes Lee may not be the biggest C out there but the guy is an animal in getting rebounds, and in turn creating 2nd chance opportunities for his team. The guy is top 3 in rebounding and he's mobile on the court (big plus for a "running" team). It's not all about skill range. Sometimes you need to balance out. It doesn't make any sense to have both of your bigs being perimeter players. This is why O'Neal didn't work out in T.O. Although he's leagues ahead of Bosh on the defensive end; their offensive game is too similar (with Bosh being more versatile and efficient).
| quote: | Biedrins is a fantastic C. I drafted him the last two years in Fantasy, but he's just now blossoming into a major player. on the Raps it would mean moving Bargnani out of his (arguably) optimal position, so I'm not sure how that works...,unless you're either dealing Bargnani or Bosh to get him.
Marion-Bargnani-Biedrins? hmmmmmm...that would be interesting. presumably the Raps get more than just a straight-up move and it could mean an upgrade at SG too. |
There was a proposed trade (as in: proposed by an editor as the "best trade" for Toronto to make, not an actual rumour) that would send Chris Bosh to Golden State for Biedrins, Belinelli, Randolph, Turiaf and a 1st round pick. I'm sorry but a trade like this pretty much fills up any hole the team has. On top of that it has a ton of assets for any further patchwork needed (still pretty weak on the wings in terms of defense).
This line up:
PG: Calderon-Ukic-Belinelli
SG: Belinelli-Parker-Graham
SF: Marion-Randolph-Graham
PF: Bargnani-Randolph-Humphreys
C: Biedrins-Bargnani-Turiaf
We`d get WAY younger but would have a much more complete team imo
| quote: | The reason I mentioned him is that acquiring him it doesn't necessitate a trade...but clearly there are trade/free agent options who would be better.
I'd sooner see Defino as the starting SG than anyone currently on the Raps roster. |
Well considering we only have Parker as a viable option (and maybe Joey Graham) yea Delfino isn't that bad, but he offers nothing to the team that is needed. |
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| Invasionmix |
| God, we never seem to seal the deal with games. We'll always be doing well up to the 3rd quarter and just let it go in the 4th. Happened on so many occasions, why is that? Mentality? unable to handle pressure? Fatigue? |
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| Sly_Guy |
| quote: | Originally posted by infinity HiGH
They have a good shooter. His name in Anthony Parker. As I've said before the whole team is built with "good" shooters. Calderon? Shooter. Kapono? Shooter. Bosh? Shooter. Bargnani? Shooter. How the heck do you expect the teams problems to be addressed by adding ANOTHER shooter? They need an athletic, dynamic SG that can drive and create. One who isn't afraid of contact.
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Agreed, I've been saying this all along. And our shooters aren't shooting because no one can create the easy looks they need right now.
| quote: |
Top 5? CP3, Deron, Billups, Rondo, Rose, Tony Parker, Steve Nash, Jason Kidd, Jameer Nelson and possibly Westbrook (hardly seen him play).
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Rondo's overrated. Rose has potential to be top 5, but his assist numbers are too low currently to regard him as top 5. Kidd's fading, as is Nash, nearing the end of their careers, but they'd still be up there for sure. Jameer Nelson would be my #5 right now, but Calderon isn't that far off the pace, if he could only play any kind of defense whatsoever.
my top 5:
CP3
Deron
Chauncey
Tony
Jameer
| quote: |
As for them "downgrading" at PG it really depends who they get back, who else is dealt, who they draft, etc. 1 option could be them bringing in a vet. PG to play alongside Ukic. Or drafting somebody like Ricky Rubio who has way more upside. Or just wait it out and see what the situation is like after next season and focus on addressing other problems. How about signing Mike Biddy in the off season and dealing Jose+someone else for another type of player/players that we need? Eg that athletic swingman we so desperately need.
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I think it's too early to test out ukic like this. You'd be throwing too much at him too early. I like ukic, I see potential, but I don't see the consistency I need to feel comfortable to give him the keys and tell him "you're the future starting PG of this team". At least not yet.
| quote: |
There was a proposed trade (as in: proposed by an editor as the "best trade" for Toronto to make, not an actual rumour) that would send Chris Bosh to Golden State for Biedrins, Belinelli, Randolph, Turiaf and a 1st round pick. I'm sorry but a trade like this pretty much fills up any hole the team has. On top of that it has a ton of assets for any further patchwork needed (still pretty weak on the wings in terms of defense).
This line up:
PG: Calderon-Ukic-Belinelli
SG: Belinelli-Parker-Graham
SF: Marion-Randolph-Graham
PF: Bargnani-Randolph-Humphreys
C: Biedrins-Bargnani-Turiaf
We`d get WAY younger but would have a much more complete team imo
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I heard about this proposed trade. I'm a big fan of it. I just don't see Nelly going for it. Nelly is in love with those wings, and he's not getting wings in return. |
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| MarkT |
I guess I'm basing my wishes on what the Raps *should* be doing, rather than reality...
I think Parker is gone after this year and no one else on the roster is better, so I think next year's starter will come from outside the org. A shooter wouldn't be awful if (I know, big IF) Bosh and Bargnani shoot less. yeah, that's probably not going to happen...but it should.
I definitely don't rank all of the PGs listed ahead of Jose...certainly not Rose, Rondo and Westbrook.
as for Bibby as an option...maybe. he's quietly having another good year and coming off a 15 mil salary. I wonder what he's expecting on the open market and if Atlanta intends to try to resign him (no other decent PG option on the roster). I don't see him as an upgrade on Jose, but not a big downgrade either, I guess.
I'd honestly rather deal Bosh than Jose, in part because he'd should fetch quite a player/package in return (assuming Raps don't appear desperate)...but that GS rumour is pretty ridiculous, lol. no way GS makes that deal.
"Chris Bosh to Golden State for Biedrins, Belinelli, Randolph, Turiaf and a 1st round pick"?
There were rumours of Biedrins-Randolph for Bosh and the Raps said no (which is indeed too little). Toss in one of the other players and it's more interesting...
I admit that I'd love to see Biedrins in a Raps uniform. I'm not sure wtf Nelson was thinking when he gave him unexplained, inconsistent playing time prior to this year. I could see dealing Bosh dealt if it meant seeing Biedrins-Bargnani-Marion and a deeper bench. Bosh and Bargnani are getting abused inside far too much. |
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| dj_deltawye |
| Lets face it, this is a BAD team. They can score, but they can't defend if their life depended on it. Everyone looks at eachother on defence, their is no communication, no trust, and no heart. This season is over, and was over a long time ago. I feel sorry for Colangelo, he's brought pretty good players here, but they can't play with eatchother, it's really, really sad. |
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| infinity HiGH |
| quote: | Originally posted by dj_deltawye
Lets face it, this is a BAD team. They can score, but they can't defend if their life depended on it. Everyone looks at eachother on defence, their is no communication, no trust, and no heart. This season is over, and was over a long time ago. I feel sorry for Colangelo, he's brought pretty good players here, but they can't play with eatchother, it's really, really sad. |
It doesn't help that we have a few ESL players. |
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| Porky |
| quote: | Originally posted by infinity HiGH
There was a proposed trade (as in: proposed by an editor as the "best trade" for Toronto to make, not an actual rumour) that would send Chris Bosh to Golden State for Biedrins, Belinelli, Randolph, Turiaf and a 1st round pick. I'm sorry but a trade like this pretty much fills up any hole the team has. On top of that it has a ton of assets for any further patchwork needed (still pretty weak on the wings in terms of defense).
This line up:
PG: Calderon-Ukic-Belinelli
SG: Belinelli-Parker-Graham
SF: Marion-Randolph-Graham
PF: Bargnani-Randolph-Humphreys
C: Biedrins-Bargnani-Turiaf
We`d get WAY younger but would have a much more complete team imo
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you never trade a star for bit pieces. what a horrible trade |
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| infinity HiGH |
| quote: | Originally posted by Porky
you never trade a star for bit pieces. what a horrible trade |
Well it happens all the time, especially if a team has so many gaping holes and it's not even guaranteed that the star in question will re-sign with you. |
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| MarkT |
| quote: | Originally posted by Porky
you never trade a star for bit pieces. what a horrible trade |
agreed...but Biedrins is hardly a bit piece and I'm really getting the feeling that Bosh is outta here unless there's a massive turnaround next year.
I'm getting on board the 'trade Bosh' bandwagon. It's become quite apparent that Bosh and Bargnani are incapable of defending even middle-of-the-road teams. 5 and 4 rebounds, respectively...are you kidding me?
I don't know that Bargnani will net enough on the trade market, so shifting him to PF and trading Bosh for a package that includes a legit C who rebounds and blocks (like Biedrins) is making more sense.
Bosh for Biedrins, Randolph and another player? Bosh + something for Biedrins and an unhappy Monta Ellis? |
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| slingshot |
These trades you guys are proposing would essentially turn us into the Charlotte Bobcats....except without Larry Brown as a coach. Charlotte may actually have better players than us with this trade. In the NBA, star power reigns supreme. I know there is the Detriot Piston argument...but Sheed, Rip, and Chauncey were pretty much stars imo.
If Bosh were traded to GS for the players you guys are proposing...we would have NO go-to player at all. Just a bunch of average players. Don't forget that good players make average players around them better. A whole team of average players would result in a season no better than this one. |
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| Sorin.16v |
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