For all the bleeding hearts out there who don't realize the world is a dangerous place:
quote:
CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style Attack on Los Angeles
Before he was waterboarded, when KSM was asked about planned attacks on the United States, he ominously told his CIA interrogators, “Soon, you will know.”
According to the previously classified May 30, 2005 Justice Department memo that was released by President Barack Obama last week, the thwarted attack -- which KSM called the “Second Wave”-- planned “ ‘to use East Asian operatives to crash a hijacked airliner into’ a building in Los Angeles.”
After KSM was captured by the United States, he was not initially cooperative with CIA interrogators. Nor was another top al Qaeda leader named Zubaydah. KSM, Zubaydah, and a third terrorist named Nashiri were the only three persons ever subjected to waterboarding by the CIA.
Before they were subjected to “enhanced techniques” of interrogation that included waterboarding, KSM and Zubaydah were not only uncooperative but also appeared contemptuous of the will of the American people to defend themselves.
After he was subjected to the “waterboard” technique, KSM became cooperative, providing intelligence that led to the capture of key al Qaeda allies and, eventually, the closing down of an East Asian terrorist cell that had been tasked with carrying out the 9/11-style attack on Los Angeles.
“You have informed us that information obtained from KSM also led to the capture of Riduan bin Isomuddin, better known as Hambali, and the discover of the Guraba Cell, a 17-member Jemaah Islamiyah cell tasked with executing the ‘Second Wave,’” reads the memo. “More specifically, we understand that KSM admitted that he had [redaction] large sum of money to an al Qaeda associate [redaction] … Khan subsequently identified the associate (Zubair), who was then captured. Zubair, in turn, provided information that led to the arrest of Hambali. The information acquired from these captures allowed CIA interrogators to pose more specific questions to KSM, which led the CIA to Hambali’s brother, al Hadi. Using information obtained from multiple sources, al-Hadi was captured, and he subsequently identified the Garuba cell. With the aid of this additional information, interrogations of Hambali confirmed much of what was learned from KSM.”
A CIA spokesman confirmed to CNSNews.com today that the CIA stands by the factual assertions made here.
So why didn't Obama release this info too? Simple.... because he knows that if the public could see the details of the techniques side by side with evidence that the program saved American lives, the vast majority would support continuing it.
This flies in the face of such talking points by Krypton et al that torture never works, and people will simply say anything to get it to stop. But hell, KSM never should have had that happen to him even though Los Angeles was spared, right?
I, for one, am glad Cheney has called for the specific CIA reports showing evidence of thwarted attacks by their approved interrogation techniques to also be released. People who think torture will recruit scores of new terrorists against America should be more worried that the release of the CIA memos will do worse... not only will you have clandestine operations officers in the field being more hesitant to apply techniques out of fear of getting prosecuted, but the anti-American crazies now know the extent of what we'd be willing to do to obtain information and can readily prepare for training against it (even if we aren't allowed to do it anymore). 4 different CIA directors urged Obama not to release the memos, but we should listen to a community organizer over those who have spent their lives in the world of intelligence and counter-intelligence? lol. But he's gotta hold the moral high ground on everything I guess.
Waterboarding, sleep deprivation, etc. are an insult to the word "torture" anyway, if any of you read what kind of ed up things other countries do to their captives.
Alex
quote:
Originally posted by The17sss
For all the bleeding hearts out there who don't realize the world is a dangerous place:
So why didn't Obama release this info too? Simple.... because he knows that if the public could see the details of the techniques side by side with evidence that the program saved American lives, the vast majority would support continuing it.
Bull . Absolute bull .
As if torture is the only way possible to attain information, you have got to be kidding me man. As if the CIA would not have been able to attain this information any other way in time.
If intelligence gathering relies as heavily as you think on torturing, then Id be seriously worried if I were you.
Edit: Wow, so now you are rationalizing torture by downplaying it and comparing it to what other countries do. I didnt know us in the first world simply drew up our human rights schemes to be only `a little bit better` than the rest.
pmoisse
If torture saves lives, why all the secrecy with flying people to dodgy countries to have the beat out of them?
If these tactics are so great, why not advertise the fact that you mercilessly beat the ever-living out of people who you capture?
Wouldn't that be a better deterrent? Surely someone as savvy as Dick Cheney could sell that one to the American people...
Shakka
I always thought Nathan Jesup got a bad rap.
jerZ07002
I'm curious how making someone think he is drowning is NOT torture! The fear of perceived imminent death is certainly as bad, if not worse than, pain. I'd rather be whipped with a rope than think i'm about to die.
anyway, the ends don't always justify the means. I don't know how any republican (or supporter of torture) can say that america is the greatest country on earth when they believe we should conduct ourselves in a manner that is no greater than some of the worst countries on earth (i.e., saudi arabia, egypt, etc...). In order to be the best, you must live by superior principles.
The17sss
quote:
Originally posted by Alex
Bull . Absolute bull .
As if torture is the only way possible to attain information, you have got to be kidding me man. As if the CIA would not have been able to attain this information any other way in time.
If intelligence gathering relies as heavily as you think on torturing, then Id be seriously worried if I were you.
Edit: Wow, so now you are rationalizing torture by downplaying it and comparing it to what other countries do. I didnt know us in the first world simply drew up our human rights schemes to be only `a little bit better` than the rest.
How do you know it would have been obtained "in time" in another manner? You don't and all you can do is speculate. You can't even give credit to the fact that waterboarding KSM saved potentially thousands of lives stopping an attack that was already in the works. And get outta here with your straw man... I never said intelligence gathering relies heavily on torture. I'm making the point that it can be, and obviously has been effective with what was relased today by the CIA.
The17sss
quote:
Originally posted by jerZ07002
I'm curious how making someone think he is drowning is NOT torture! The fear of perceived imminent death is certainly as bad, if not worse than, pain. I'd rather be whipped with a rope than think i'm about to die.
anyway, the ends don't always justify the means. I don't know how any republican (or supporter of torture) can say that america is the greatest country on earth when they believe we should conduct ourselves in a manner that is no greater than some of the worst countries on earth (i.e., saudi arabia, egypt, etc...). In order to be the best, you must live by superior principles.
The debate isn't whether or not waterboarding is torture... that's its own discussion. It's for those who DO consider it torture, and claim that it doesn't work, never works, and has no place ever, period. I totally agree that ends don't always justify means, but this circumstance absolutely does considering what was gathered from the waterboarding.
culorut
No torture needed, intelligence was and is still good enough. And it was more than enough to stop the real 9/11.
Originally posted by jerZ07002
I'm curious how making someone think he is drowning is NOT torture! The fear of perceived imminent death is certainly as bad, if not worse than, pain. I'd rather be whipped with a rope than think i'm about to die.
That is the point. It's psychological, not physical. You'd break easily.
And no you didn't just re-direct to the mother of all conspiracy threads to support your thesis.
Lebezniatnikov
Meh, Los Angeles is filled with heathens and hippies anyway. And Mexicans, of course.
LazFX
quote:
Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov
Meh, Los Angeles is filled with heathens and hippies anyway. And Mexicans, of course.
