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Real cause of earthquakes... (pg. 6)
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| Jennifer_P_ |
| quote: | Originally posted by Magnetonium
So technically, these societies have done a lot of hard work to "eliminate" rapes. If you are going to report one, might as well be ready to be raped, too. |
... I would have to agree
| quote: | Recently Afghanistan passed a law that allows Shia men to rape their wives if they refuse sex. What are Canadian troops dying there for again?
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When there was an attempt to allow Shia Law to be practiced here, our government said no. Separation of Church and State ~ thank-you Mr. Trudeau. |
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| The Potter |
| quote: | Originally posted by FunkyCrew
If women are absolutely content with being reduced to live-in slave, who breeds children for her husband and has no rights or priviliges 90% of women around the world have, then worrying about about offending them should be the last thing on my mind. Just because women have been oppressed and brainwashed for centuries and see no other way of living - this does not mean that the cultures are so polarly different. It means exactly what I said earlier - those cultures have not progressed socially.
Sometimes you have to draw the line between prancing around and being all politially correct and polite, and just saying things exactly how they are... |
So the black/white way that you say they are, is the absolute and exact truth? Who are you to judge some women who are happy with their lives, and tell them that they are in fact unhappy? Would it not be rational and reasonable to let them decide how they feel for themselves?
Using your logic, upon seeing some happy, but drunk women wearing bikinis at spring break parties, Muslim women in these countries can fairly regard all western women as misguided prostitues, who are not in fact happy (because the Muslim women say so), and need to be re-educated and shown the errors of thir ways? The last thing that should be on their minds is offending you, as after all these years of being brainwashed, these poor women do not know any better than to go gallivanting around, whilst not giving a damn about the illegitimate babies that need to be taken care of. I guess it is only fair that the Muslim have to draw the line between prancing around and being all politially correct and polite, and just saying things exactly how they are...after all, those western women cannot be 'TRULY' happy.
If you cannot understand why some women would be happy, that is not their fault; instead, it is necessary to either try and think/empathise more, or just accept that not everyone may view the world through your unique pradigm, and that people are different. Regardless, the important and altruistic aim should be that the individuals are happy...how outlandish is that? If you insist of people also being 'TRULY' happy, with a clear and concrete defintion that is accepted by everyone, I wish you good luck.
Remember, I am not saying that there are all women are happy in these countries, far from it; but that crude and irrational generalisations about how all the women feel serve no beneficial purpose other than to obscure the nuanced reality. |
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| Magnetonium |
In Western societies, we have a lot of freedom and rights, sometimes too much freedom. We dont appreciate it, we take it for granted, we somtimes abuse it. Not always, but people do.
But at least we have the freedom. In some places people dont have freedom to choose, at all. Imagine being born in that kind of society and system. They may have a better sin-free system with strong values and culture, but often that comes at the price of freedom, rights and choices.
There is no perfect system, unfortunately, its a human condition, there probably never will be one. We can live either in a tightly controlled system, or in a wide-open democracy. Anything in between will always sway to the left or to the right, sooner or later.
If our society and system was so bad, we would all be immigrating to THOSE countries and embracing THEIR system and values. But it's the other way around.
Happiness is a very vague term anyways. It varies from individual to individual. Many people are never truly happy, its in human nature to want more. What is it? Shopping? Freedom of speech? Good job? Happiness can be found around the world, but women's rights are found primarily in the West. Those Iranian clerics were speaking for themselves, because they are worried that Western values are undermining their system. Iran has a history of secular traditions, one which I hope would continue.
Its a clash of cultures, yes.
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| Jennifer_P_ |
| quote: | Originally posted by The Potter
True, it is certainly preferable for any changes to be as organic and self-directed as possible, as it ensures that those affected have more ownership of the process. |
Yes
(ps I enjoy reading your posts) |
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| FunkyCrew |
| quote: | Originally posted by The Potter
So the black/white way that you say they are, is the absolute and exact truth? Who are you to judge some women who are happy with their lives, and tell them that they are in fact unhappy? Would it not be rational and reasonable to let them decide how they feel for themselves? |
I appologize if I came across as judgemental. All I was trying to point out was that for a Western woman, the lack of freedoms in Islamic culture seems barbaric. I'm not sure how they can "decide how they feel for themselves" - aren't they born into rigid set of rules and regulations? It doesn't seem like they have much of a choice. You are saying there are all these "happy" women out there - but how do you know they're happy? How do you know if they are not saying what is expected of them by their husbands and family? If for centuries women have been raised to be at complete discretion of their husbands and fathers, of course, why would they think that they should be unhappy?
| quote: | | Using your logic, upon seeing some happy, but drunk women wearing bikinis at spring break parties, Muslim women in these countries can fairly regard all western women as misguided prostitues, who are not in fact happy (because the Muslim women say so), and need to be re-educated and shown the errors of thir ways? The last thing that should be on their minds is offending you, as after all these years of being brainwashed, these poor women do not know any better than to go gallivanting around, whilst not giving a damn about the illegitimate babies that need to be taken care of. I guess it is only fair that the Muslim have to draw the line between prancing around and being all politially correct and polite, and just saying things exactly how they are...after all, those western women cannot be 'TRULY' happy. |
I do not think you can reverse the argument this way - why wouldn't we be happy if we enjoy the freedoms of being a free human being with a freedom of choice? |
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| Amy_DoLL |
| quote: | Originally posted by Amy_DoLL
I've said it before...if more people popped pills, listened to trance music, felt it, and understood it, I think the world would be a much happier place. |
| quote: | Originally posted by VDub
fixed... |
Omg, I did NOT say that!!!
:eyes: |
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| The Potter |
| quote: | Originally posted by FunkyCrew
I do not think you can reverse the argument this way - why wouldn't we be happy if we enjoy the freedoms of being a free human being with a freedom of choice? |
On the contrary, of course you can reverse the premise of the particular argument that you originally made, which was that you can generalise that ALL people in these societies must be unhappy, based on your subjective perception that being able to live under the same western political system will ensure that ALL these Muslim women are happy. This is just as illlogical as those eastern/Muslim women reflecting their own subjective perceptions, by saying that because the western women do live under the same political system as themselves, ALL western women must be unhappy.
Being as free as a women in the west may not guarantee happiness for some Muslim women in the east. Is it that inconceivable that a women whose freedoms were more resticted, but lived her life with all the trappings of being married to a wealthy prince/Sheikh (servants, etc., whilst being able to concentrate entirely on bringing up the many children that she always dreamt of having), would believe that she is happy. This happiness may be further re-inforced when she compares her life with some poor women who enjoy the freedoms of the west, but who are addicted to drugs, do not have jobs, are stuggling to bring up their kids on their own, and are about to have their home foreclosed.
If living under western freedoms guaranteed happiness, then how do you explain the incidence of depression? Similarly, depressed women exist in the eastern countries. Therefore, logic would dicate that there are probably other factors at play in guaranteeing happiness for women, unrelated to the level of individual freedoms.
I guess the central tenet of my point is that for most western and eastern women, individual freedoms are a necessary condition to ensure their personal happiness, but even for them, it is never a sufficient one. |
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| Endlesswave |
| quote: | Originally posted by The Potter
On the contrary, of course you can reverse the premise of the particular argument that you originally made, which was that you can generalise that ALL people in these societies must be unhappy, based on your subjective perception that being able to live under the same western political system will ensure that ALL these Muslim women are happy. This is just as illlogical as those eastern/Muslim women reflecting their own subjective perceptions, by saying that because the western women do live under the same political system as themselves, ALL western women must be unhappy.
Being as free as a women in the west may not guarantee happiness for some Muslim women in the east. Is it that inconceivable that a women whose freedoms were more resticted, but lived her life with all the trappings of being married to a wealthy prince/Sheikh (servants, etc., whilst being able to concentrate entirely on bringing up the many children that she always dreamt of having), would believe that she is happy. This happiness may be further re-inforced when she compares her life with some poor women who enjoy the freedoms of the west, but who are addicted to drugs, do not have jobs, are stuggling to bring up their kids on their own, and are about to have their home foreclosed.
If living under western freedoms guaranteed happiness, then how do you explain the incidence of depression? Similarly, depressed women exist in the eastern countries. Therefore, logic would dicate that there are probably other factors at play in guaranteeing happiness for women, unrelated to the level of individual freedoms.
I guess the central tenet of my point is that for most western and eastern women, individual freedoms are a necessary condition to ensure their personal happiness, but even for them, it is never a sufficient one. |
Yep. At least though people here and other places have the ability to do as they wish and not be crushed by the whims of the state. I mean when it comes to basic things such as wearing clothing... |
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| DigiNut |
| quote: | Originally posted by TranceGrooves
Rank Countries Amount |
Is this list normalized, per-capita? |
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| Jennifer_P_ |
| quote: | Originally posted by DigiNut
Is this list normalized, per-capita? |
also to consider ~ this is just based on US data but a little thought leads me to come to certain conclusions on why certain countries are not high on the list...
| quote: | From 2000-2005, 59% of rapes were not reported to law enforcement.[25][26] One factor relating to this is misconception that most rapes are committed by strangers.[27] In reality, according to the Bureau of Justice Statistics, 38% of victims were raped by a friend or acquaintance, 28% by "an intimate" and 7% by another relative, and 26% were committed by a stranger to the victim. About four out of ten sexual assaults take place at the victim's own home.[28]
Rape of women by men, by perpetrator[29]
Perpetrator Frequency
Steady dating partner 21.6%
Casual friend 16.5%
Ex-boyfriend 12.2%
Acquaintance 10.8%
Close friend 10.1%
Casual date 10.1%
Husband 7.2%
Stranger 2% |
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| T_ALI |
Again, it really depends on which denomination/sect/type of family you grew up in.
Not everyone agrees on the rules and doctrine...
Why do you think there are so many different sects in each religion...
There are fundamentalists who chose to live their life by the book and allow fewer rights as stated in this article and others who are more moderate/liberal who are more rational and know when to draw the line.
Conservative/hardline fundamentalist Muslims believe that all the Qur’an and (usually) the Hadith traditions are for all times, except for parts specifically abrogated. Women have barely any rights.
Liberal Muslims want a changed, mellowed-down Islam adapted to their modern lifestyle. Some still read the Qur’an a lot, and others are more secular. They do not pray five times a day, and ignore what the Hadiths say about Muslim women having to wear veils. Men and Women have equal rights.
Also your culture and which religion you were part of go hand in hand, where both influence each other.
I'm an athiest but IMO Conservative/hardline fundamentalist muslims have got to go. |
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| Jennifer_P_ |
...and this:
| quote: | Saudi Arabia Rape victim gets 200 lashes
Arab News reported a court in Saudi Arabia punished a female victim of gang rape with 200 lashes and six months in jail. She was initially ordered to undergo 90 lashes for being in the car of an unrelated male at the time of rape.
A year-and-a-half ago in the Eastern Province town of Qatif, Saudi Arabia, a seven men gang raped a 19 year old girl 14 times. The three judges who presided this case instead of punishing just the attackers, punished the girl as well and sentenced her to 90 lashes for being in a car of an unrelated male at the time of the rape.
Women in Saudi Arabia are not permitted to drive cars, so they rely on relatives to take them if they had to visit place. If they are found in a stranger’s car they get punished with lashes and prison term in some cases. In this case the three wise men punished the rape victim.
The Qatif General Court sentenced the rape victim to 90 lashes for being in the car of an unrelated male and sentenced the seven rapists ranging from 10 months to five years in prison. This caused quiet an outrage in the Arab world and the victim’s lawyer, Abdul Rahman Al-Lahem, appealed to the courts and said the punishment is lenient for the rapists, while it is unjust for the victim.
So, what was the response from the General Court, they doubled the number of lashes for a rape victim as well as jail terms for her assaulters. They topped it off by suspending the victim’s lawyer from defending her in the future. The Saudi Appeals Court sentenced the victim to 200 lashes and six months in prison. The seven victims had their prison terms increased to between two and nine years.
This has caused quiet a stir in Saudi Arabia as well as in other Arab countries. The reason the Saudi Appeals Court increased the punishment for the rape victim was “her attempt to aggravate and influence the judiciary through the media.”
Judge Soliman Al-Muhanna from the Qatif court told the lawyer (Al-Lahem) that the judicial committee had decided to suspend him from the case. They also confiscated his license which is granted to Saudi lawyers by the Ministry of Justice.
Al-Lahem tried his best to persuade the judge that he was just doing his job trying to defend his client, but they did not listen and suspended him. He was sent a new letter to attend the disciplinary session on 25th of the Hijra month. The reason was he was trying to advertise his services and that is against the Saudi law.
The case has angered members of Saudi Arabia's Shi'ite community. The convicted men are Sunni Muslims, the dominant community in the oil-rich Gulf state. |
http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/246259 |
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