Originally posted by RapidFire
I realize most of the big names use assistant producers to help them but that doesn't discredit the DJs themselves from being involved in the process. that's my point.
The fact that all top-tier DJs use co-producers would suggest to anyone else that being a top-level DJ precludes having enough time to properly produce. It would have helped your argument to point out top DJs who are also solo producers, but you'd rather see any evidence as positive. Sorry man, total fanboy behaviour.
Mattinsanity
quote:
Originally posted by Mattsanity.
havoc. kanye west can eat a dick.
bigsnail
alan parsons
al hudson
RapidFire
quote:
Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
The fact that all top-tier DJs use co-producers would suggest to anyone else that being a top-level DJ precludes having enough time to properly produce. It would have helped your argument to point out top DJs who are also solo producers, but you'd rather see any evidence as positive. Sorry man, total fanboy behaviour.
or it could be that DJs who hit it big were not classically trained and needed the assistance of co-producers to help make their work sound more professional (which again does not mean they don't put in any effort themselves as your argument seems to suggest) or to add a certain flavor to their sound. if i'm displaying fanboy behaviour then you're displaying textbook cynicism...
then there's an artist like BT who collaborates with tons of producers. why? hes technically flawless but he uses the input of others to add another dimension to his work, and its not always listed as BT featuring Bill Hammel, or BT featuring Jody Wisternoff. They're in the liner notes (much like sasha's work) but not next to the main moniker.
SYSTEM-J
quote:
Originally posted by RapidFire
or it could be that DJs who hit it big were not classically trained and needed the assistance of co-producers to help make their work sound more professional (which again does not mean they don't put in the effort themselves) or to add a certain flavor to their sound. if i'm displaying fanboy behaviour then you're displaying textbook cynicism...
Again, evidence that top DJs don't have enough time to learn how to make music to a proficient level. Seriously, at what point are you going to make a positive comparison to Sasha with any of these DJ examples?
quote:
then there's an artist like BT who collaborates with tons of producers. why? hes technically flawless but he uses the input of others to add another dimension to his work, and its not always listed as BT featuring Bill Hammel, or BT featuring Jody Wisternoff. Its in the liner notes (much like sasha's work) but it goes under the main moniker.
Out of 32 tracks on BT's last three albums, co-producers are credited on two tracks. You know why those producers aren't credited in the title? Because artists albums don't have the artist name on the tracklist. Jesus Christ. Again, what the do you think you're proving? Do you think that demonstrating that producers collaborate automatically validates Sasha? BT has proved that he can produce to a world-class level on literally hundreds of solo productions. Sasha has never proven that, and so your comparison is baseless. You're just pulling out terrible example after terrible example and then digging weird, pointless holes of desperate inference from your own piss-poor comparisons.
geroin
quote:
Originally posted by RapidFire
then there's an artist like BT who collaborates with tons of producers. why? hes technically flawless but he uses the input of others to add another dimension to his work, and its not always listed as BT featuring Bill Hammel, or BT featuring Jody Wisternoff. They're in the liner notes (much like sasha's work) but not next to the main moniker.
no he doesn't lol, they collaborate with him!
bt is a ing genius on his own, he doesn't need anyone, in fact i would even say that he gets paid really well to collab with gays like tiesto and others like him
RapidFire
quote:
Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
Again, evidence that top DJs don't have enough time to learn how to make music to a proficient level. Seriously, at what point are you going to make a positive comparison to Sasha with any of these DJ examples?
there are plenty of artists who use co-producers. in and out of the EDM scene...does that mean that these artists don't put in just as much work if not more than the assistant producers? no it doesn't. I feel like I'm running in circles trying to emphasize this point. It simply helps to have a second hand who is technically knowledgeable. do you have to be a BT or a Lieb (technically speaking) in order to be a good producer? no you don't. co-producers are there to make sure that everything is sealed packaged and delivered and to get the most out of you.
now going back to a point I made earlier- its all what you consider to be a good producer. creativity vs. high-end technical ability. both are sought after but in my mind the latter is not necessary if the former has sufficient knowledge in the technical field. I don't need a thousand pitch perfect stutter edits to impress me... a simple yet evocative melody will do the trick. That's something I believe Sasha has; an ear for music complete with a moderate knowledge of the technical field. He uses Charlie May to help push that technical side but using your very own example, Arkham Asylumn is proof that even when left to his own devices, he has the know-how to crank out a legendary track.
I'm not changing my stance on this... and it has nothing to do with being a fanboy...for sakes the thread is titled "whos is your FAVORITE all time producer", and I enjoy Sasha's productions the most (both as an individual and as a unit) . what can't you comprehend?
quote:
Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
Out of 32 tracks on BT's last three albums, co-producers are credited on two tracks. You know why those producers aren't credited in the title? Because artists albums don't have the artist name on the tracklist. Jesus Christ. Again, what the do you think you're proving? Do you think that demonstrating that producers collaborate automatically validates Sasha? BT has proved that he can produce to a world-class level on literally hundreds of solo productions. Sasha has never proven that, and so your comparison is baseless. You're just pulling out terrible example after terrible example and then digging weird, pointless holes of desperate inference from your own piss-poor comparisons.
MISL (UK edition) was almost entirely comprised of co-producers and its considered a classic peice of dance music and among his best work (perhaps only second to ESCM). I realize that he's done plenty of records on his own which sound great but when he collaborates, his productions are infinitely more interesting and turn out to be his most renowned works (flaming june, namistai, godspeed etc). my point is that even someone as good as BT often needs co-producers to make his work more dynamic.
I'm simply trying to throw out examples which help to emphasize that a lot of the best productions have stemmed from collaborations, and that there's nothing wrong with having an assistant producer. you on the other hand seem to be arguing for the sake of arguing.
SYSTEM-J
quote:
Originally posted by RapidFire
I'm simply trying to throw out examples which help to emphasize that a lot of the best productions have stemmed from collaborations, and that there's nothing wrong with having an assistant producer. you on the other hand seem to be arguing for the sake of arguing.
What you're arguing is entirely subjective and beside the point. I don't think MiSL is "second only to ESCM" in BT's discography. I think it's an uneven collection of genre experiments the beginning of his decline. Furthermore I think Ima and TBU, which had no co-producers at all, were by far his best albums. Also, MiSL is not considered a classic of dance music except by a few trancecrackers. Honestly, how many respected DJs or music journalists would call MiSL a classic? And for what it's worth, I consider some early Sasha material which has been proven to be made by Tom Frederikse, such as the Qat tracks and Magic, to be better than almost any of the pap he's put out in the last five years,
This is not an argument about whether co-producers are good or whether co-producers improve a track. It's about whether Sasha has any of the skill or ability to deserve being called a top producer, and providing logical cases and evidence to support that. You're doing nothing of the sort. Again and again, you're letting the fact you like a piece of music overwhelm objective consideration. Let's reiterate some known facts.
1. Until 1996 Sasha definitely not produce any of his own music. He has been called a "yes man" in the studio in that time by collaborators and has admitted himself he didn't know anything.
2. As recently as 2004 Sasha was still saying he'd only just sat down and learned how to use everything in the studio, despite giving the same speech years previously.
3. Even in the last year or two there were tracks released under Sasha's name that had no input from him whatsoever. In fact, all the emFire material was going to have been released under the collective alias "Coma" but that was scrapped because Sasha's name is more profitable.
4. Sasha repeatedly delayed his artist album, taking a whole decade to actually sit down and make it, admitting several times he'd started it but hadn't had any time to work on production.
All of this paints the picture of a professional, full-time DJ who has wanted to make cutting edge records throughout his career but not had the time or expertise to become proficient enough, an artist who is known to have been credited on productions he did no producing on, productions that were released 15+ years apart at opposite ends of his career.
Comparisons to BT are false and baseless because BT has not relied on co-producers throughout his career, BT is not a full-time DJ, BT has not been proven to have released records he did no work on, and BT has never had any trouble cranking out regular productions. BT has had several videos and interviews where he's shown people around his studio, BT has written his own plug-ins and programmes and BT plays his own music live. All compelling proof that BT can in fact produce to a high standard without an help at all. By contrast, what's your proof of Sasha's sole, singular, un-aided production abilities? 20 minutes of music made fourteen years ago. Not enough to declare someone a great producer.
G-Con
quote:
Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
What you're arguing is entirely subjective and beside the point. I don't think MiSL is "second only to ESCM" in BT's discography. I think it's an uneven collection of genre experiments the beginning of his decline. Furthermore I think Ima and TBU, which had no co-producers at all, were by far his best albums. Also, MiSL is not considered a classic of dance music except by a few trancecrackers. Honestly, how many respected DJs or music journalists would call MiSL a classic? And for what it's worth, I consider some early Sasha material which has been proven to be made by Tom Frederikse, such as the Qat tracks and Magic, to be better than almost any of the pap he's put out in the last five years,
This is not an argument about whether co-producers are good or whether co-producers improve a track. It's about whether Sasha has any of the skill or ability to deserve being called a top producer, and providing logical cases and evidence to support that. You're doing nothing of the sort. Again and again, you're letting the fact you like a piece of music overwhelm objective consideration. Let's reiterate some known facts.
1. Until 1996 Sasha definitely not produce any of his own music. He has been called a "yes man" in the studio in that time by collaborators and has admitted himself he didn't know anything.
2. As recently as 2004 Sasha was still saying he'd only just sat down and learned how to use everything in the studio, despite giving the same speech years previously.
3. Even in the last year or two there were tracks released under Sasha's name that had no input from him whatsoever. In fact, all the emFire material was going to have been released under the collective alias "Coma" but that was scrapped because Sasha's name is more profitable.
4. Sasha repeatedly delayed his artist album, taking a whole decade to actually sit down and make it, admitting several times he'd started it but hadn't had any time to work on production.
All of this paints the picture of a professional, full-time DJ who has wanted to make cutting edge records throughout his career but not had the time or expertise to become proficient enough, an artist who is known to have been credited on productions he did no producing on, productions that were released 15+ years apart at opposite ends of his career.
Comparisons to BT are false and baseless because BT has not relied on co-producers throughout his career, BT is not a full-time DJ, BT has not been proven to have released records he did no work on, and BT has never had any trouble cranking out regular productions. BT has had several videos and interviews where he's shown people around his studio, BT has written his own plug-ins and programmes and BT plays his own music live. All compelling proof that BT can in fact produce to a high standard without an help at all. By contrast, what's your proof of Sasha's sole, singular, un-aided production abilities? 20 minutes of music made fourteen years ago. Not enough to declare someone a great producer.
