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Thinking of Upgrading my Studio Monitors
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| Nick Cenik |
I could use some advice guys :)
I currently produce with EVENT TR8 monitors and although I do indeed like them I'm considering upgrading. I'd like to get a sub-woofer for my (bedroom) studio and the EVENTs have no controls that would allow me to specify which frequencies go to the monitors and which to a subwoofer. I tend to push the EVENTs a bit hard because it's a tad difficult for me to determine if my tracks have enough low-end without doing so. Plus, I think it's time I move to a nicer pair of monitors (the EVENTs seem a tad flat in the mids & highs to me).
Including the subwoofer, I'd like to spend $1500 CDN total on the new gear (which, at the moment, is equal to $1500 USD). I take it the sub will cost about $400-500, so that leaves me with $1000-1100 for monitors.
So, which subwoofer and monitors do you guys recommend considering my previous setup and the fact that I have a standard size bedroom studio? If anybody is interested, I produce using Ableton Live 8 and an Echo AudioFire 4 interface.
I'd sincerely appreciate any advice. |
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| Zombie0729 |
| a lot of dance guys don't even use a sub, but do you have a picture of you room by any chance? |
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| theterran |
After having listened through dozens of the mid-high price range monitors at a few of my local shops...I'd have to highly recommend the Yamaha HS80m's. (I believe it was Dj Raphie that recommended them to me on TA)
If you have a medium-large sized room they should be just fine, and they allow for a -2db trim decrease for high/med/low.
They seem extremely accurate, the sweet spot is nice and wide, they look and sound sexy, and the aural image is quite good.
They also have a matching sub-woofer that's nice and compact, but offers immense low-sub range accuracy. You definitely want to bass-trap your room with it though.
I saw a few deals online that offer both monitors, sub and all of the connections for 1000 bucks, which is a pretty sweet deal imo.
I hear that the bass is "lacking" in the Yamahas themselves, but I think those comments are coming from those who don't understand how low-range accuracy works. Once you understand how the bass translates from the monitors to the expensive Hi-fi with powered subs, you learn to really appreciate the sacrifice in "how good it sounds" over accuracy.
Most of the online reviews I've read prefer them over Event TR8's, KRK V8's , and Mackie HR824's.
I'd also check out some Adam A7's...I think they were a bit too expensive for me at the time, but I only hear good things about them.
I would strongly recommend visiting a guitar center (or similar) and going through the comparisons yourself. The one I visited showcased the HS80m's with the sub in a "medium" sized room. I sampled Skrillex's in for the kill remix on them and was blown the away at the amount of clarity and detail they provided.
Oh and if you haven't already, make sure to isolate your monitors with some Auralex pads. I prefer having stands with them as well opposed to just plopping them on the desk, as it makes positioning loads easier. (Auralex pads have an inherent incline, so you'd need to position them in front and above on your desk to avoid sound reflection off the desk, opposed to out to the sides if they're adjusted level with stands : http://www.ratcliffe.co.za/articles/acoustics2.gif) |
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| ken_lee |
| Ive said it in thousands of threads lately. i recommend Genelecs purely for the fact that they are 100% honest and flat and build like tanks. I have the 8020 which works perfect for me, but I think they might be too small for some, they dont go very deep in the bass, doesnt play really loud, and they doesnt fill the entire room with sound; they are nearfields for sure. If you can live with larger speakers id compare these to JBL LSR4325/28, cause i believe those are awesome too. |
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| Nick Cenik |
The Yamaha HS80ms and the corresponding subwoofer are definitely one of the pairings that has come to mind. Apologies, but what does bass trapping the room mean?
My monitors are currently sitting on Auralex pads and (then) stands - not placed on my desk.
I'll post a pic of my room in a couple of hours once I get home from
work.
I'll look into the Genelecs.
Cheers! |
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| theterran |
| quote: | Originally posted by Nick Cenik
Apologies, but what does bass trapping the room mean?
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No apologies needed :). Bass trapping is basically setting up soft sound absorbing material in the corners/sides of your room to absorb high-energy, low-frequency sound. Basically it keeps your room from resonating and gives you better low-end monitoring. It's fairly cheap and simple to do yourself as far as I know. (You don't necessarily need to spend a whole bunch of cash for marketed bass-traps, and can very well make them yourself)
The location of the basstraps is room dependent (typically in the corners), so I would consult a recording technician's book or google on how to best go about it :). |
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| theterran |
| quote: | Originally posted by Eric J
Or, just quit messing around and pick up some Focal Twin 6be or some Adam P33A units.
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Out of my own curiosity (not to start debate or flaming)...
What would be the reason to pick something like these up as an at home hobbyist? They look geared more towards a professional recording studio.
To really gain true benefit from them you'd have to invest in a solid studio as well...
If you're sending your stuff off to be mastered by a professional engineer is it really worth it? I get that if you take care of them they should last your lifetime...but I imagine that later down the line there will be better technology available.
Meh, just seems like they're taking advantage of gearlust to me is all. *shrug*
I also don't see the point of a monitor that performs way outside your natural hearing range. Maybe it has to, to get such a flat response? If not, it still seems like extra cost for something you can't hear/ benefit from. |
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| theterran |
| quote: | Originally posted by Eric J
Stuff. |
Cheers. Didn't mean offense by "at home hobbyest". I meant it as someone either entering the professional realm, or someone aspiring to take it to the next level... not someone looking to make phat beats to impress their friends. "Professional" being someone that gets paid true, but when I think professional, I think about Infected Mushroom, Above and Beyond etc...And yeah in that realm you have to have the best to stay competitive.
With regards to a solid studio I meant investing in acoustic treatments on top of the monitors, not thousands of dollars worth of gear. Picking those monitors and putting them up in a normal untreated room would be like filling a Ferrari full of 87 octane gas and slapping some General tires on it...Sure it still goes faster than most everything else on the road, but you aren't doing the damn thing any justice.
Yeah I've seen that mastering is quite misunderstood. (Obviously went through that phase myself, but I learn fast :))
With regards to the monitors themselves I always think in % benefit vs. Cost. Of course more refined monitors will produce more accurate sound...but how much more accurate relative to cost? I've heard mixes produced on low-end speakers that stand next to DJ Tiesto's mixes in a club/car/headphones in terms of quality...So I'm merely asking your honest opinion on how much better a pair of Focal twin 6be's would be over something like the Yamaha's or Adam A7's. These are questions any consumer should ask themselves when making an investment in the thousands of dollars range.
With regards to technology...You're very wrong. I'm quite familiar with the engineering realm being close to graduating with my ME Bachelors. It's safe to say that the Engineer's main goal in life is to improve, improve, improve all while reducing cost. So it's highly doubtful that these companies will sit around with their thumbs up their asses without making improvements to their product. Take the NS10's for example...The HS80's are arguably BETTER than the NS10's, and the NS10's were definitely more than $350 per monitor.
Why do people cling to their 5 year old monitors? Because their ears understand them and there's no need to buy anything newer...That doesn't mean that newer monitors aren't better.
Most people would say that it's the music itself that's most important, and sound quality comes next anyway...(don't want to get into that tbfh because I don't care, both are equally important to me)
I've seen from experience overspending for "the best" when something cheaper would have worked just as well. My buddy picked up a pair of Pioneer DJM-2000's because he needed to have the best...Ended up selling them and picking up a traktor kontrol s4...and it worked just as well.
I'm not particularly biased on anything really...merely asking questions geared towards fact than opinion. (although monitors can be quite opinion based I've gathered)
If I was the OP, I'd test out the Focals as well (if they are even available in local shops) and consider saving for them if I deemed them the superior product for my coin. Those frequency response charts are sure pretty but your ears are the best determining factor...especially at 1,600 bucks per monitor (one monitor already exceeding his budget) + the sub he wants.
Oh, and people get hyped about all of the expensive synths and whatnot because they want to sound different than the rest. That's what this dubstep craze is all about...It's also a matter of : in = out. A great pair of monitors can't fix a ty synth or sample...allow you to make it better sure...but not fix. |
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| Nick Cenik |
I really appreciate the insights gentlemen! Thank you for taking the time to go into such detail. And, yes, as Eric J suggests I am trying to become as talented and successful as possible with my music 'career': producing and gigging for a living is my dream, although admittedly I have a long way to go.
Eric, I would LOVE to get some equipment like you suggested but my current finances simply do not allow for it :(
I have attached a few pics of my (messy!) bedroom studio. Any advice on setting up bass traps would be greatly appreciated!
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| theterran |
-Edit-
After seeing your room I'd actually advise against the HS80s from the info I've gathered on them.
and my last bit of insight into what I was saying...
I know Tiesto doesn't do his own engineering...he has professionals do it, which is why I would feel safe trusting his mixes when sampling monitors for trance. (lol)
I know that my own current mixes sound bad because I'm working with lower end gear. I don't mind hearing flaws in my mixes on higher end gear...(motivation!) And I'm beginning to learn how to understand the difference between bad speakers producing bad quality sound, and bad quality mixes on high end monitors. (You're right, I'm fairly new at this, just started last January but I'm learning alot, but feel that I do know a thing or two ^^)
I have an odd feeling that poorly mixed music makes it out there because people with un-refined ears really can't tell the difference anyway, and that Hi-Fi can mask alot of the flaws. A high-end Klipsch or 808 system will do it's best to make sure everything sounds gooood cuz that's it's job.
I really haven't had access to the really high end monitoring gear so I imagine you're totally right and the difference would be noticeable...And if he's making that kind of upgrade I already said he should try and get a listen. Just seemed like he wanted a "better" monitoring setup with a sub...and the HS80's seemed to fit the bill for the budget.
The comparison I made with the Dj'ing gear I still feel is valid. The point is that the Pioneers were better, no argument. But the kontrol worked just as well for him. So it's more about getting what suits you than spending oodles of money. I really try to shy away from "because it's more expensive it must be better" mentality and prefer to see/hear/test for myself. Alot of people get trapped in it and end up spending extra unnecessary cash. I guess it was more of a point to be objective when shopping.
Also wasn't basing anything on frequency charts, but the contrary. I know that they contain some useful info, but shouldn't be the end-all-be-all of your decision making. I would simply hate to make a leap of faith with $3,200+ without having listened to them.
So anyway...Hopefully some useful stuff to think about for the op :)I know that I'm strongly considering waiting longer for better monitors myself after having discussed it...although my problem is that I'm not self confident...and I'm unsure whether or not I have the talent to pursue music as a career. I have fallen victim to "settling" before as well, and it sucks too. |
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| Nick Cenik |
| quote: | Originally posted by theterran
After seeing your room I'd actually advise against the HS80s from the info I've gathered on them. |
Please elaborate! |
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| theterran |
| quote: | Originally posted by Nick Cenik
Please elaborate! |
Same reason for bass traps...the 8" cone produces more high energy low-end frequency. If you're in a "small" room this tends to actually work against you in terms of low-end accuracy and you'll be more prone to making tracks that translate with a lacking low-end.
The HS50m's with a sub would probably work quite well in that room, but with a downsized cone you could definitely look for higher quality monitors than the yamaha's for a similar price to the 8" cones. (More material typically = more $$$ to make them = more $$$ you have to spend)
The sweetwater review for the sub can be found here http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/HS10W/
I've simply read through a TON of reviews and they all say to steer away from 8" cones in a small room regardless of manufacturer.(I find if you go through and sample a ton of reviews on google you can get safe bets on what's good/what's not and then go from there)
As for bass traps I can tell you what my rectech book says. I have Audio in Media Sixth Edition by Stanley R. Alton.
From what I can see with a square room, your bass traps go in each corner, with absorbers on the front wall, ceiling and side walls and a diffuser on the back wall. The centers of the absorbers should meet you at eye level. You should also be making a triangle with all equal sides when you sit in front of your monitors. When this is the case your side wall absorbers should be positioned next to you on either side. Not saying this is the end-all be all, but it suggests this as the optimal setup for a square room with nearfield monitors. Carpet I imagine is ideal, as the main goal is to deflect or absorb any of the sound that isn't going straight from monitor to ear.
Google and wikipedia provide all of the information on how to build your own, what materials are needed etc...hope that was useful :) |
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