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RIP Christopher Hitchens (pg. 9)
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| EddieZilker |
| quote: | Originally posted by Fledz
...all you have to do is accept God and you are forgiven. It is the ultimate cop-out. |
But what does that mean, to accept? The way your sentence is phrased makes it sound like no more thought is given this than turning on a light-switch. Presto! Instant forgiveness. I'm not Catholic but my understanding of that religion says it's a little more involved than saying, "I accept Jesus as my lord and savior." |
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| EddieZilker |
| quote: | Originally posted by Joss Weatherby
No, I am trying to co-opt people stupid enough to believe black and white distinctions of religious people into establishing a radical view of them that might make them more prone to harass and do something to them. :p
Its like how the Nazis worked, except I am painting all religious people not just the jews. |
I want to like you, Nou. You'll always have that, from me. :toothless |
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| srussell0018 |
| quote: | Originally posted by EddieZilker
But what does that mean, to accept? The way your sentence is phrased makes it sound like no more thought is given this than turning on a light-switch. Presto! Instant forgiveness. I'm not Catholic but my understanding of that religion says it's a little more involved than saying, "I accept Jesus as my lord and savior." |
This. You have to confess to a priest and be absolved through prayer and their blessing. (This is still quite silly, though) |
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| Fledz |
You go through the various religious processes, though to be honest I'm not sure what the point is. The teachings are that if you believe in "the one true God" and accept his as you Lord and Saviour, you will be accepted into heaven because Jesus died for our sins and therefore all is forgiven.
You could murder a hundred people but if you repented and were truly remorseful and saw the wrongs of your ways, the Father would forgive you and accept you in. Remember though that God is all-knowing so you can't fake it.
That's essentially it. Does that not sound as absurd to the rest of you as it does to me? |
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| srussell0018 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Fledz
You go through the various religious processes, though to be honest I'm not sure what the point is. The teachings are that if you believe in "the one true God" and accept his as you Lord and Saviour, you will be accepted into heaven because Jesus died for our sins and therefore all is forgiven.
You could murder a hundred people but if you repented and were truly remorseful and saw the wrongs of your ways, the Father would forgive you and accept you in. Remember though that God is all-knowing so you can't fake it.
That's essentially it. Does that not sound as absurd to the rest of you as it does to me? |
That's not entirely accurate. You're leaving out the being absolved part. It's not an automatic "well, I feel bad for that, and I believe in Jesus, so now I'm saved" thing. |
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| Lira |
| quote: | Originally posted by Fledz
I don't want to defend Nou in any way shape or form but he is right. In the Roman Catholic belief, all you have to do is accept God and you are forgiven. It is the ultimate cop-out. |
Yeah, like I said, it's a loop-hole. One of the greatest poems written in my native language is about a guy who sins as much as possible just so God can forgive him.
However, I remember Catholics often have reservations about the sincerity of the acceptance of God: if you sin with the intent of regretting it later, I'm pretty sure this renders your regret void under the eyes of God or something.
Edit: What Russell said. |
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| -FSP- |
| Hitchens has set atheism back at least 20 years. Thanks to him, people will associate atheists as snobby s. |
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| Lira |
| quote: | Originally posted by -FSP-
Hitchens has set atheism back at least 20 years. Thanks to him, people will associate atheists as snobby s. |
I associate atheists with realists who know that, if there was a God, the hotties from the Girl's Generation would be spread all over the world, and not restricted to a peninsula on the other side of the world :mad: |
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| Fledz |
| quote: | Originally posted by srussell0018
That's not entirely accurate. You're leaving out the being absolved part. It's not an automatic "well, I feel bad for that, and I believe in Jesus, so now I'm saved" thing. |
I mentioned the "various religious processes". At the core of it though, you don't actually need a priest to absolve you at all. All you need to do is accept God into your life. Priests are a construct of humanity, not a requirement of God.
| quote: | Originally posted by Lira
However, I remember Catholics often have reservations about the sincerity of the acceptance of God: if you sin with the intent of regretting it later, I'm pretty sure this renders your regret void under the eyes of God or something.
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I already covered this. You are either truly remorseful or you are not. You cannot fake it because God is all knowing and you cannot lie to him.
Once again, it is clear how absurd this is. |
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| Lira |
| quote: | Originally posted by Fledz
I already covered this. You are either truly remorseful or you are not. You cannot fake it because God is all knowing and you cannot lie to him.
Once again, it is clear how absurd this is. |
This debate is getting quite odd though: Two former Catholics are trying to defend Catholicism from the claims of yet another former Catholic even though all the three people involved are now atheists.
I assume that I can't find a reply to what you said. But, then again, I agree with you so I'm not sure I'm doing a good job defending that :p |
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| Fledz |
| I'm not really defending it, I'm just clarifying what it is :p |
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| srussell0018 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Fledz
I mentioned the "various religious processes". At the core of it though, you don't actually need a priest to absolve you at all. All you need to do is accept God into your life. Priests are a construct of humanity, not a requirement of God.
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Except nothing in The Bible is a requirement of God. It's a "requirement" of the institution of Catholicism. All religion and church doctrine is a construct of humanity.
You're wrong in that all is required is accepting God into your life. Like I said, it's not as though believing in God gives all Catholics automatic forgiveness for sins. Yes, Original Sin is forgiven through baptism and accepting God, Jesus, etc., but penance is the means to forgiveness for adults.
| quote: | | In a sacramental understanding of the term, "penance" applies to the whole activity from confession to absolution. Generally speaking, however, it is used to characterize the works of satisfaction imposed or recommended by the priest on or to the penitent. |
Absolution is the forgiveness achieved through the sacrament of reconciliation.
Were you really Catholic? Catholicism must be quite different wherever you grew up. |
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