Also, someone really should write a book trying to explain why Germans seem to always be less PLUR than their counterparts in other countries. Underground Resistance was always very militant as well and not PLUR but those guys had a distinctly left wing political militant aesthetic. From what you and san leaper are describing woony it almost seems like the berlin techno scenes desire is to achieve a hedonistic hardcore aesthetic. Which I am not sure what that is supposed to accomplish.
I actually have some family who live in both germany and austria. All either immigrants or half germans. They always complain about how closed germans are. Especially to strangers or people they just met. Perhaps there is just something to the German character that makes them be wary of opening themselves up to strangers even if chemically induced in a PLUR type rave.
paulversuspaul
Just real quick, Sasha and Digweed also played this song really late. Had me tripping bc i thought my mind was trippin and thinking of strings of life.
Sand Leaper
quote:
Originally posted by paulversuspaul
I gotta get my hands on that book.
Also, someone really should write a book trying to explain why Germans seem to always be less PLUR than their counterparts in other countries. Underground Resistance was always very militant as well and not PLUR but those guys had a distinctly left wing political militant aesthetic. From what you and san leaper are describing woony it almost seems like the berlin techno scenes desire is to achieve a hedonistic hardcore aesthetic. Which I am not sure what that is supposed to accomplish.
I don't really see a marked difference between UR and Berlin as far as techno and counter culture goes. They were both motivated by socio economic issues in their immediate surroundings (though UR probably leans more towards social justice due to the problems in US inner cities), both adapted militant imagery to manifest their resistance and both fiercely resisted commercialisation (Major labels, the mentioned Low Spirit debacle, the mega growth of Mayday). It's no coincidence that Tresor became the Berlin/Detroit flashpoint that it did.
paulversuspaul
quote:
Originally posted by Sand Leaper
I don't really see a marked difference between UR and Berlin as far as techno and counter culture goes. They were both motivated by socio economic issues in their immediate surroundings (though UR probably leans more towards social justice due to the problems in US inner cities), both adapted militant imagery to manifest their resistance and both fiercely resisted commercialisation (Major labels, the mentioned Low Spirit debacle, the mega growth of Mayday). It's no coincidence that Tresor became the Berlin/Detroit flashpoint that it did.
Yes, in that it makes tons of sense. But there seems to be this hedonistic thing of partying for 20 plus hours while on massive amounts of drugs and or having crazy sex that is unique to berlin or germany. Additionally, anyone was welcomed to a UR party. It was highly inclusive. You cannot say the same about e-werk, the bunker, or berghain. I guess what I am getting at, is that both Detroit and even the UK rave scene had a distinctly left wing aesthetic that included openness and a reaction against reaganism and thatcherism. I just dont see what is left wing about not letting anyone into your party. But perhaps thats the whole point. They didnt have a right wing boogie man to rebel against, they were rebelling against a decadent so called socialist state.
Its sad that so few people post on this board bc for my money the posters who do here are still the most god damn knowledgeable ive encountered on electronic music. This has been a great conversation.
SYSTEM-J
quote:
Originally posted by paulversuspaul
So is berghain basically an attempt to go before that?
I'd say the difference is that Berghain is capital-T Techno, whereas you're really talking about trance events. A more loved up side of German clubbers obviously exists, otherwise the lush trance of Kid Paul, PVD and their ilk wouldn't have gained traction. But techno just isn't particularly PLUR. With a few exceptions, I've never found that out-and-out techno sets really hit the spot on E. When they did, it was more the exhilarating, high-energy end of the spectrum. The kind of doom-y industrial dungeon techno so closely associated with Berlin is just clearly not designed to trigger a rush. Practically the opposite.
Sand Leaper
quote:
Originally posted by paulversuspaul
Additionally, anyone was welcomed to a UR party. It was highly inclusive. You cannot say the same about e-werk, the bunker, or berghain.
Someone who goes to Berghain regularly should probably answer this, but from what I've gathered, the restrictive door policy there isn't necessarily political. It's more of a punter vetting process that is necessary to create the kind of vibe the club is known for. That's why anyone and everyone can and will be turned away at any given time if five dudes or chicks of your particular ilk just got in before you.
quote:
I guess what I am getting at, is that both Detroit and even the UK rave scene had a distinctly left wing aesthetic that included openness and a reaction against reaganism and thatcherism. I just dont see what is left wing about not letting anyone into your party. But perhaps thats the whole point. They didnt have a right wing boogie man to rebel against, they were rebelling against a decadent so called socialist state.
Well, it's not like conservatives have a monopoly on hostility towards foreign cultural elements. Just look at what James Stinson had to say about a certain bespectacled white boy from across the border: http://drexciyaresearchlab.blogspot...er-january.html
Either way, I would maintain that early techno culture was always firmly planted on the left. It just strove to fight cultural authoritarianism, regardless of what political wing said authoritarianism stemmed from (the left in Berlin, the right in Detroit). What kind of conservative would be able to relate to the "degenerate" sexual and drug liberalism that techno propagated in the 90s?
paulversuspaul
quote:
Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
I'd say the difference is that Berghain is capital-T Techno, whereas you're really talking about trance events. A more loved up side of German clubbers obviously exists, otherwise the lush trance of Kid Paul, PVD and their ilk wouldn't have gained traction. But techno just isn't particularly PLUR. With a few exceptions, I've never found that out-and-out techno sets really hit the spot on E. When they did, it was more the exhilarating, high-energy end of the spectrum. The kind of doom-y industrial dungeon techno so closely associated with Berlin is just clearly not designed to trigger a rush. Practically the opposite.
I really like this response. I had never thought of it that way since I have done plenty of E at techno events but come to think of it, it was never that industrial type of techno.
I saw Klock about 4 years ago in LA play a 4 hour set, one of the best sets ive ever heard, and he seemed so into it too, but now come to think of it, he played so differently than the mixes of his from berghain. He played way more high energy stuff, groovy house, and really went into an almost melodic and melancholic side toward the end before finishing it off with DVS1 pressure. I was in E bliss. It was a real ravey event at a warehouse that had a distinct PLUR type vibe. I think out here the scene is so different that even when the berghain guys play here they play much more ravey plur type songs that I had just assumed that was what was going on in berlin too.
Also, I got to meet Klock briefly after the show and the guy is a real class act and super nice guy.
paulversuspaul
quote:
Originally posted by Sand Leaper
Well, it's not like conservatives have a monopoly on hostility towards foreign cultural elements. Just look at what James Stinson had to say about a certain bespectacled white boy from across the border: http://drexciyaresearchlab.blogspot...er-january.html
Either way, I would maintain that early techno culture was always firmly planted on the left. It just strove to fight cultural authoritarianism, regardless of what political wing said authoritarianism stemmed from (the left in Berlin, the right in Detroit). What kind of conservative would be able to relate to the "degenerate" sexual and drug liberalism that techno propagated in the 90s?
Really good points.
Do you know of any resources for the history behind this stuff besides the book woony recommended?
FYI, whats funny is that when I was young I never did drugs or even drank. I was a really nerdy left wing intellectual in high school and early college. I decided to go to a rave mainly bc I saw it as a left wing rebellion against the authoritarianism prevalent in the US at the time and because I had naturally started liking electronic music because I saw its connection to neoclassical music which I had gotten into at the time. Part of my love affair with the whole PLUR rave scene was the feeling of finally being welcomed at an amazing party. That kind of welcoming vibe and openness meant a lot to me at that time and still does. It really changed me for the better with one of the weird side effects being I started becoming the guy people wanted to hang out with since I knew the best rave parties to go to in addition to being really fun at these events. When i started to be invited to exclusive stuff and vip I naturally hated those parties because I realized they would never let in my 18 year old self. Ive never really left that idea that the best rave is one that would welcome my 18 year old self and allow him to have a great time.
Woony
quote:
Originally posted by Sand Leaper
Someone who goes to Berghain regularly should probably answer this, but from what I've gathered, the restrictive door policy there isn't necessarily political. It's more of a punter vetting process that is necessary to create the kind of vibe the club is known for. That's why anyone and everyone can and will be turned away at any given time if five dudes or chicks of your particular ilk just got in before you.
I would say it's at least partly politically motivated since it's an explicitely gay club that's trying to create a good space for gay people. (although the clubs crowd is much more straight now than it used to be). Interestingly though, from what people have told me, Ostgut basically had no notable door policy and even early on in Berghain's life span there wasn't this crazy door policy. It probably evolved as mechanism of self-preservation when the club started getting traction.
quote:
Originally posted by Sand Leaper
Either way, I would maintain that early techno culture was always firmly planted on the left. It just strove to fight cultural authoritarianism, regardless of what political wing said authoritarianism stemmed from (the left in Berlin, the right in Detroit). What kind of conservative would be able to relate to the "degenerate" sexual and drug liberalism that techno propagated in the 90s?
Sure, both were pretty liberal but neither really had a political agenda. UR's goals were very pragmatic, kick the majors out of the music business and save detroit - there wasn't really a grand political plan behind it. Early german techno was trying really hard to be apolitical, to a degree that seems incredibly naive in hindsight. There was a common belief in the scene that politics were over after the reunification, now that the techno movement is going to unite humanity. If you look at some of the early Atari Teenage Riot records ('Hetzjagd auf Nazis'), they were a reaction to this poltical naivity because there were nazis in the scene and nobody was doing anything about it because of this strong idea of politics being irrelevant in the age of techno. You can also see this in all the naive Love Parade slogans like 'Piece on Earth' etc.
When the Westbam book I mentioned earlier came out a few years ago, there was actually a facebook fight between Tanith (along with many other of the berlin techno OGs) and Achim Szepanski (who now writes incredibly dense marxist theory for a living) of Force Inc (which was always the most extreme left label in techno, they printed the RAF logo on records and were under surveilence from the secret service from the early 90s) over the role of politics in early techno, Tanith going on about how politics really didn't matter back then and Szepanski insulting everyone and going on about how the techno scene was always full of conformist liberal pseudo-leftist bootlickers. Of course though, the one thing that united everyone was ting on Westbam :stongue:
Woony
Most of the stuff written on techno's history is absolutely garbage. It's also always the same ing narratives recycled and some of them aren't even true. Like, how detroit techno was this explicitely inner-city low class movement. I read this old Derrick May interview the other day and he was talking about how the Music Institute cost 25 bucks entry. That's 52 bucks adjusted for the inflation! Low class my ass.
It's not explicitely for techno but 'Last Night a DJ Saved My Life' by Bill Brewster is great, well written und thoroughly researched. 'Techno Rebels' by Dan Sicko is an alright history of detroit techno, altough it spends forever droning on about these high school parties out of which detroit techno emerged (which had kids wearing Armani and also cost 25 bucks entry, for the record). One interesting thing he kind of mentions in passing is that much of techno's mythology was essentially invented by seasoned british music journalists that were basically projecting their grand ideas on these clueless kids and Derrick May, being the smart guy he is, was quick to pick all of it up and repeat it.
But anyways, definitely go and buy Klang der Familie. It's an oral history that's absolutely hilarious, I don't know how well it translates but there are so many amazing anecdotes. The best one is that this business guy I mentioned earlier, Laarman, was the boss of the biggest german rave mag at the time, Frontpage. They were going all big business and fittingly, Laarman developed a ridiculous coke habit - he always had a huge pile of coke in a drawer, which he called the mt. blanc. Then one day, the pile went missing and he stormed in the office all pissed off and was yelling 'who climbed the mt. blanc?" :stongue:
Sand Leaper
quote:
Originally posted by Woony
Sure, both were pretty liberal but neither really had a political agenda. UR's goals were very pragmatic, kick the majors out of the music business and save detroit - there wasn't really a grand political plan behind it. Early german techno was trying really hard to be apolitical, to a degree that seems incredibly naive in hindsight.
Yeah, that was pretty much my point. Once the Wall status quo had been toppled, there wasn't really a main enemy to focus the rebellion on, since anti-authoritarianism was the primary unifying political factor (in so far as techno ever had one). Any non-reactionary political move beyond this would probably have shattered the idea of PLUR or any sort of "scene" pretty quick once the 90s kept rolling.
quote:
When the Westbam book I mentioned earlier came out a few years ago, there was actually a facebook fight between Tanith (along with many other of the berlin techno OGs) and Achim Szepanski (who now writes incredibly dense marxist theory for a living) of Force Inc (which was always the most extreme left label in techno, they printed the RAF logo on records and were under surveilence from the secret service from the early 90s) over the role of politics in early techno, Tanith going on about how politics really didn't matter back then and Szepanski insulting everyone and going on about how the techno scene was always full of conformist liberal pseudo-leftist bootlickers. Of course though, the one thing that united everyone was ting on Westbam :stongue:
Hah, got any links to all this? I knew Szepanski (and probably Wolle XDP, who Tanith sort of fell out with) were hard lefties, but the whole Baader-Meinhof thing is news to me :wtf: Probably cos I don't own a whole lot of Force Inc on vinyl.
paulversuspaul
As an american, I would add one thing. African American hard left wing politics in the US is a separate thing altogether. Its really unique. It doesnt fit into normal political paradigms that exist in europe. Its political but not in the normal sense. UR politics make way more sense if you know this history and so does the fact that guys wore armani while being charged 25 dollar tickets outside detroit. Detroit was the one city in which AA gained a real advance under the golden age of capitalism in the US. It was the one city that had the emergence of a true black middle class in the US. The cities destruction under reaganism wasn't lost on anyone from that city. There is a reason why Techno came from that city. The story of Detroit is the story of black pain but very different than New York or LA black pain which gave rise to rap.
As a brown US citizen with a distinct middle class background I too feel that pain. Its hard to understand if you are white because unlike marxism or class politics, its something that doesnt fit into traditional political lines. There are tons of genres i love listening to, but detroit techno is the one that i feel most speaks to me from an identity perspective. You have to understand, for us brown people living in a white country with such a long history of racism, the very fact that something was about unification of people IS political. If you understand this weird dynamic you would get that saving detroit is a political act about saving a black city destroyed under neoliberalism. rebelling against commercialization is about not letting "white capitalists" profit of you and remove the blackness from your art in order to sell it to mass audiences. This is the country in which people were actively encouraged to burn disco records, something that was perceived as distinctly racist by most brown people who loved disco. When I was still in high school and college, some of the radio stations would play only beastie boys and eminem but not one rap song from a black artist. Listening or making electronic music was a revolutionary political act in the US bc it destroyed the artificial bull walls built between white music and black music.
