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Capitalism (pg. 14)
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| wotyzoid |
| quote: | Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
I don't know how many long posts I have to write out where I tell you I think you're barking up the wrong tree by focusing on capital as if it unlocks the solution to the problem YOU opened this thread by highlighting.
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You keep saying that, but beyond the point where society knows the problems I highlighted are problems why do they persist? It has nothing to do with the economic structure? It's cultural? These are either things you are embarrassed to admit you never thought about or you are too proud to give into for the sake of your ideology.
| quote: | Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
I'm referring to the notion you touched on earlier that if we just make our energy clean enough and our manufacturing green enough, everyone can keep up the current lifestyle and the planet will be fine. |
I never said everything will be fine and everyone can keep doing what they're doing. I said capitalism has driven us to this point. If anything I am helping you "quash that realization." |
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| wotyzoid |
You're here talking about overpopulation and culture and I'm the shallow one. I thought you wanted to have a serious discussion.
Edit: Your begged question, how much of the blame goes to the economic system in place? Most of it, and the rest to the people who thump it. |
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| SYSTEM-J |
| quote: | Originally posted by wotyzoid
These are either things you are embarrassed to admit you never thought about or you are too proud to give into for the sake of your ideology. |
Kenny, you've already embarrassed yourself once with this "you don't know what you're talking about" bluff when you tried it on PKC. You're now accusing me of having not thought about something when I gave my views on it on the very first page of the thread:
| quote: | | It's an animal tendency to horde resources, to eat more than you need, to reproduce in pointless numbers. We're just animals that have short-circuited the natural systems of equilibrium. Capitalism didn't create consumption. It's the product of human nature, not the driver of it. |
We're basically lapsing into the classic debate of the system vs the individual, of agency versus systemic oppression. Which is why I made my glib original post of "Always the game, never the player". And ultimately, this is about as futile a debate as Religion Vs Atheism, because I've never seen anyone change their mind about either subject because of an argument on the Internet. |
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| wotyzoid |
I'm just saying, you're choosing to ignore the points I'm making in order to make yours. Indeed that's never gonna go anywhere.
I'm not embarrassed. |
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| DJ RANN |
Honestly, I don't know why you guys are discussing it with Kenny; he accuses anyone asking a question of being vague yet his entire premise for this magic solution is based on some incredibly vague and completely untested hypothesis that a pure communist model (one that's never worked) is earth's savior, both economically and environmentally.
It's quite bonkers.
Then when he gets called out, he comes with the "only trolling lol" then falls back on meme posting, while not actually seeing the very memes he's posting are actually an ironic commentary or better said mockery, of exactly his type of people. |
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| r5a |
anyone think those terrible day after tomorrow, 2012 and apocalyptic type movies are actually gonna be an issue on the horizon? cause i do
at the rate we're going its looking like a pretty safe bet some is gonna happen and it'll be too late to fix it. |
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| SYSTEM-J |
| quote: | Originally posted by r5a
anyone think those terrible day after tomorrow, 2012 and apocalyptic type movies are actually gonna be an issue on the horizon? cause i do
at the rate we're going its looking like a pretty safe bet some is gonna happen and it'll be too late to fix it. |
I doubt it'll be as dramatic as all that. But the environment is collapsing from every angle: water shortages, rising sea levels, micro-plastic pollution, soil erosion, catastrophic decline of pollinating insects, acidification of the ocean, climate change. What I expect to happen in the next 50 years is that the planet will stop being able to produce enough food for the human population, and famine, war and mass migration like we've already seen in Europe will become enormous problems.
Personally, I don't understand why there isn't a global population cap enforced immediately. No woman can bear more than two children in her lifetime. If we don't do that as the absolute bare minimum, there's going to be a humanitarian crisis on a global scale within our lifetimes. I haven't heard it seriously proposed anywhere though, presumably because it's considered inhumane to stop people breeding like ing rabbits.
I will say, though, that an attitude of "It's too late to stop it, so I won't even try" is a complete moral dereliction. |
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| DJ RANN |
| It's already happening. We've just had a war (Syria) in part start due to migration stemming from water shortages, and you only have to look at temperatures this past week in the USA (where LA had record breaking of over 44c / 112f - temps usually associated with desert climates) to know there's a big shift. |
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| wotyzoid |
| You can't kill unborn babies bro, that's murder. All lives matter. |
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| wotyzoid |
| quote: | Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
What I expect to happen in the next 50 years is that the planet will stop being able to produce enough food for the human population, and famine... |
We already make enough food to feed the world. Have for a while. The problems is there is no profit in distributing it properly.
http://www.fao.org/save-food/resources/keyfindings/en/
Famine is not some thing on the horizon. 10 million people die every year because of hunger. |
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| SYSTEM-J |
I know that. But that's at current population under current environmental conditions, and it's only sustained by high intensity farming which is remarkably bad for the planet. The UN has warned that soil erosion means we have a maximum of 60 years of harvests left:
https://www.scientificamerican.com/...tion-continues/
So even if the population doesn't increase, we need to change our farming methods soon to avoid global famine. |
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| DJ RANN |
| quote: | Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
I doubt it'll be as dramatic as all that. But the environment is collapsing from every angle: water shortages, rising sea levels, micro-plastic pollution, soil erosion, catastrophic decline of pollinating insects, acidification of the ocean, climate change. What I expect to happen in the next 50 years is that the planet will stop being able to produce enough food for the human population, and famine, war and mass migration like we've already seen in Europe will become enormous problems.
Personally, I don't understand why there isn't a global population cap enforced immediately. No woman can bear more than two children in her lifetime. If we don't do that as the absolute bare minimum, there's going to be a humanitarian crisis on a global scale within our lifetimes. I haven't heard it seriously proposed anywhere though, presumably because it's considered inhumane to stop people breeding like ing rabbits.
I will say, though, that an attitude of "It's too late to stop it, so I won't even try" is a complete moral dereliction. |
Birth caps (like china had) are incredibly problematic. In some ways wealthier nations are doing it to themselves; white middle class people aren't having kids like they used to even 30 years ago, let alone 50.
It's the poor that generally pop out of several kids, due to various factors such as a lack of contraception, education and the hope that family can support you (literally a family workforce).
The things is that population graphs exist for a reason, and frankly nature adjusts itself. We'll run our of resources, out of clean water, breathable air, places to store our trash/waste, and then there's the other factors that come with overpopulation such as disease and famine.
In the grand scheme of things and evolution of time, we're meaningless - we haven't lived 1% as long as the dinosaurs did in one of their three periods yet we've managed to basically start the process of wiping ourselves out in a self induced cataclysmic event. |
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