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Cease Fire? (pg. 16)
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View this Thread in Original format
| occrider |
| quote: | Originally posted by DrummeRaver86
despite my location, I am from the middle east, lebanese in fact. but my nationality has no bearing on my political views. I do not like the palestinians or the isrealis.
I realize that that sire is all facts, but what upsets me is that it portrays ALL palestinians as animals. It does not attempt to individualize. Obviously, it is an amateur attempt at getting people all psyched up for a palestinian ass-whooping. |
What the hell??? Somebody from the middle east not taking a radical side??? Looks like you need some more hard line indoctrination ;) |
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| DrummeRaver86 |
| quote: | Originally posted by occrider
Looks like you need some more hard line indoctrination ;) |
Har.:D |
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| Shakka |
| quote: | Originally posted by DrummeRaver86
despite my location, I am from the middle east, lebanese in fact. but my nationality has no bearing on my political views. I do not like the palestinians or the isrealis.
I realize that that sire is all facts, but what upsets me is that it portrays ALL palestinians as animals. It does not attempt to individualize. Obviously, it is an amateur attempt at getting people all psyched up for a palestinian ass-whooping. |
The site did make a very one-sided statement. However, Israeli soldiers are acting in defense and are at least obeying the Geneva Conventions, whereas a lot of the Palestinian agression is barbaric and makes them look more like animals. Pretty disgusting exocution video on that site.:( |
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| DrummeRaver86 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Shakka
The site did make a very one-sided statement. However, Israeli soldiers are acting in defense and are at least obeying the Geneva Conventions, whereas a lot of the Palestinian agression is barbaric and makes them look more like animals. Pretty disgusting exocution video on that site.:( |
Believe me, I do not like the Palestinians at all, not one bit. But I do not like to see generalizations, because that leads to ignorance. To say that ALL Palestinians are savages is wrong. But I do agree with you. At least the Israeli army is more orthodox in its methods. |
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| Shakka |
| quote: | Originally posted by DrummeRaver86
Believe me, I do not like the Palestinians at all, not one bit. But I do not like to see generalizations, because that leads to ignorance. To say that ALL Palestinians are savages is wrong. But I do agree with you. At least the Israeli army is more orthodox in its methods. |
And I agree with you about generalizations and stereotypes leading to the furthering of the ignorance of the masses.:) ;) |
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| DrummeRaver86 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Shakka
And I agree with you about generalizations and stereotypes leading to the furthering of the ignorance of the masses.:) ;) |
You know, it angers me, but it also saddens me when I see people who are just so ignorant. I've been the victim of stereotypical remarks and racial/ethnic profiling. All I can say is the best tool to have these days is education. It'll help you get far, and help you earn everyone's respect. |
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| Palestinian |
| quote: | Originally posted by Shakka
The site did make a very one-sided statement. However, Israeli soldiers are acting in defense and are at least obeying the Geneva Conventions, whereas a lot of the Palestinian agression is barbaric and makes them look more like animals. Pretty disgusting exocution video on that site.:( |
I'm sorry to say that most of what you say here is false. Israeli soldiers are NOT acting in self defense. The Palestinians waited until 1995-a full 28 years after Israel's illegal occupation of their land in 1967 -to use suicide bombing as a means of armed resistance to end the occupation. After 28 years of Israeli control and torture of Palestinian civilians, people lose hope. It makes no sense to say Israeli soldiers are acting in self defense. There is no self defense for them until they end the occupation. You can't say you're defending yourself from the people you occupy and terrorize. That's garbage. Israeli soldiers are worse than suicide bombers in their methods. If the media wasn't one sided, you would watch Palestinians getting killed and humiliated everyday.
As for the Geneva Conventions, Israel is in severe violation of them.
The Israeli violations of the Fourth Geneva Convention include, in part, the following:
# Systematic torture, in violation of articles 27, 31, 32, and 147.
# Collective punishment, like demolition and sealing of houses and restrictions on movement, in violation of articles 33 and 53.
# Prolonged closures that lead, for example, to loss of income from employment, without providing alternative sources of income for the residents, in violation of article 39.
# Massive establishment of settlements of Israeli citizens in the occupied territory, in violation of articles 49 and 53.
# Detention and imprisonment of residents of the occupied territory in prison facilities located within Israel, in violation of article 76.
# Administrative detention of thousands of Palestinians for prolonged periods, grossly exceeding the provisions of article 78, in violation of article 49.
# Revocation of residency rights in the occupied territory comprising East Jerusalem, in violation of article 47.
# Expropriation and exploitation of the natural resources existing in the occupied territory to meet the needs of the occupying power, in violation of article 55
Let's look at article 49 in detail:
Article 49 of the Fourth Geneva Convention explicitly provides that, "The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies."
Establishing the settlements (fine first world homes with swimming pools on hills overlooking fourth world Palestinian villages), populating them with Israeli Jewish civilians, and expanding them occurred while the territory was under IDF control and subject to occupation.
UN Commission on Human Rights:
Israel's occupation has been determined as:
a) A Violation of the UN Charter, 4th Geneva Conventions, and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights:
The CHR Resolution of 19 October 2000 reaffirms that Israel's military occupation is a violation of the UN Charter, the Fourth Geneva Conventions (12 August 1949) and their 1977 Protocols, and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. This framework has been reaffirmed by the CHR since the early 1970s.
b) War Crimes and Crimes Against Humanity:
The CHR Resolution of 19 October 2000 reaffirms that Israeli violations in the 1967 occupied territories are war crimes. The Commission first recognized Israel's systematic and grave breaches of the Fourth Geneva Conventions as war crimes in 1972
http://www.btselem.org/
The Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories
http://www.badil.org
Resource Center for Palestinian Residency and Refugee Rights
One more thing, if you guys would like to see a one-sided website that has pictures of Palestinian victims, tell me. Or maybe you would like to see the effects of US depleted uranium on Iraqi civilians in the 90s. Yes it's propaganda and that's why I'm asking before posting since some of you were exposed to Viber's site, maybe you'de also like to see one from the other side. I don't need to show
it to prove my points though. :p |
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| Viber |
| quote: | Originally posted by Palestinian
I'm sorry to say that most of what you say here is false. Israeli soldiers are NOT acting in self defense. The Palestinians waited until 1995-a full 28 years after Israel's illegal occupation of their land in 1967 -to use suicide bombing as a means of armed resistance to end the occupation. After 28 years of Israeli control and torture of Palestinian civilians, people lose hope. It makes no sense to say Israeli soldiers are acting in self defense. There is no self defense for them until they end the occupation. You can't say you're defending yourself from the people you occupy and terrorize. That's garbage. Israeli soldiers are worse than suicide bombers in their methods. If the media wasn't one sided, you would watch Palestinians getting killed and humiliated everyday.
As for the Geneva Conventions, Israel is in severe violation of them.
The Israeli violations of the Fourth Geneva Convention include, in part, the following:
# Systematic torture, in violation of articles 27, 31, 32, and 147.
# Collective punishment, like demolition and sealing of houses and restrictions on movement, in violation of articles 33 and 53.
# Prolonged closures that lead, for example, to loss of income from employment, without providing alternative sources of income for the residents, in violation of article 39.
# Massive establishment of settlements of Israeli citizens in the occupied territory, in violation of articles 49 and 53.
# Detention and imprisonment of residents of the occupied territory in prison facilities located within Israel, in violation of article 76.
# Administrative detention of thousands of Palestinians for prolonged periods, grossly exceeding the provisions of article 78, in violation of article 49.
# Revocation of residency rights in the occupied territory comprising East Jerusalem, in violation of article 47.
# Expropriation and exploitation of the natural resources existing in the occupied territory to meet the needs of the occupying power, in violation of article 55
Let's look at article 49 in detail:
Article 49 of the Fourth Geneva Convention explicitly provides that, "The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies."
Establishing the settlements (fine first world homes with swimming pools on hills overlooking fourth world Palestinian villages), populating them with Israeli Jewish civilians, and expanding them occurred while the territory was under IDF control and subject to occupation.
UN Commission on Human Rights:
Israel's occupation has been determined as:
a) A Violation of the UN Charter, 4th Geneva Conventions, and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights:
The CHR Resolution of 19 October 2000 reaffirms that Israel's military occupation is a violation of the UN Charter, the Fourth Geneva Conventions (12 August 1949) and their 1977 Protocols, and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. This framework has been reaffirmed by the CHR since the early 1970s.
b) War Crimes and Crimes Against Humanity:
The CHR Resolution of 19 October 2000 reaffirms that Israeli violations in the 1967 occupied territories are war crimes. The Commission first recognized Israel's systematic and grave breaches of the Fourth Geneva Conventions as war crimes in 1972
http://www.btselem.org/
The Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories
http://www.badil.org
Resource Center for Palestinian Residency and Refugee Rights
One more thing, if you guys would like to see a one-sided website that has pictures of Palestinian victims, tell me. Or maybe you would like to see the effects of US depleted uranium on Iraqi civilians in the 90s. Yes it's propaganda and that's why I'm asking before posting since some of you were exposed to Viber's site, maybe you'de also like to see one from the other side. I don't need to show
it to prove my points though. :p |
like i said 18 years old israelies loves to pick on and abuse palastinians thats their hobbies in life:stongue:
everything have a reason isral dont destory houses for no reason and its a fact that a lot of boombs and waepons were found in the palastinian terretory that were ment to be used aginst innocente israeli civillians
theres a reason that israel needs to control those terretories and put it soldiers in any dengar
oh and let me say i hate the illeagle settelante thing becuse its stupidity to put 200 soldiers to defend 50 stupid people that looks to live in chip in the arbs houses its the most stupid thing in israel i want them to go the out of there!
BTW: DR86 my etnic scource is iraq in fact and jaws and saddam husain dont get along very well
:toothless |
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| Shakka |
| quote: | Originally posted by Palestinian
I'm sorry to say that most of what you say here is false. Israeli soldiers are NOT acting in self defense. The Palestinians waited until 1995-a full 28 years after Israel's illegal occupation of their land in 1967 -to use suicide bombing as a means of armed resistance to end the occupation. After 28 years of Israeli control and torture of Palestinian civilians, people lose hope. It makes no sense to say Israeli soldiers are acting in self defense. There is no self defense for them until they end the occupation. You can't say you're defending yourself from the people you occupy and terrorize. That's garbage. Israeli soldiers are worse than suicide bombers in their methods. If the media wasn't one sided, you would watch Palestinians getting killed and humiliated everyday.
As for the Geneva Conventions, Israel is in severe violation of them.
The Israeli violations of the Fourth Geneva Convention include, in part, the following:
# Systematic torture, in violation of articles 27, 31, 32, and 147.
# Collective punishment, like demolition and sealing of houses and restrictions on movement, in violation of articles 33 and 53.
# Prolonged closures that lead, for example, to loss of income from employment, without providing alternative sources of income for the residents, in violation of article 39.
# Massive establishment of settlements of Israeli citizens in the occupied territory, in violation of articles 49 and 53.
# Detention and imprisonment of residents of the occupied territory in prison facilities located within Israel, in violation of article 76.
# Administrative detention of thousands of Palestinians for prolonged periods, grossly exceeding the provisions of article 78, in violation of article 49.
# Revocation of residency rights in the occupied territory comprising East Jerusalem, in violation of article 47.
# Expropriation and exploitation of the natural resources existing in the occupied territory to meet the needs of the occupying power, in violation of article 55
Let's look at article 49 in detail:
Article 49 of the Fourth Geneva Convention explicitly provides that, "The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies."
Establishing the settlements (fine first world homes with swimming pools on hills overlooking fourth world Palestinian villages), populating them with Israeli Jewish civilians, and expanding them occurred while the territory was under IDF control and subject to occupation.
UN Commission on Human Rights:
Israel's occupation has been determined as:
a) A Violation of the UN Charter, 4th Geneva Conventions, and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights:
The CHR Resolution of 19 October 2000 reaffirms that Israel's military occupation is a violation of the UN Charter, the Fourth Geneva Conventions (12 August 1949) and their 1977 Protocols, and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. This framework has been reaffirmed by the CHR since the early 1970s.
b) War Crimes and Crimes Against Humanity:
The CHR Resolution of 19 October 2000 reaffirms that Israeli violations in the 1967 occupied territories are war crimes. The Commission first recognized Israel's systematic and grave breaches of the Fourth Geneva Conventions as war crimes in 1972
http://www.btselem.org/
The Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories
http://www.badil.org
Resource Center for Palestinian Residency and Refugee Rights
One more thing, if you guys would like to see a one-sided website that has pictures of Palestinian victims, tell me. Or maybe you would like to see the effects of US depleted uranium on Iraqi civilians in the 90s. Yes it's propaganda and that's why I'm asking before posting since some of you were exposed to Viber's site, maybe you'de also like to see one from the other side. I don't need to show
it to prove my points though. :p |
Excellent post if your intent was to spread disinformation. This pseudointellectual commentary does nothing for your credibility. It's not even worth responding to. Care to enlighten us all as to how the Israeli Military is "Terrorizing" and "Torturing" Palestinians? :haha: :haha: :haha: |
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| DrummeRaver86 |
Viber,
you're iraqi? i didn't know there were any jewish iraqis... |
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| Viber |
| quote: | Originally posted by DrummeRaver86
Viber,
you're iraqi? i didn't know there were any jewish iraqis... |
my father was borned there and my grandmother is from iraq and so my roots are from there and there were jaws in iraq to be more correct the most of them came to israel |
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| Palestinian |
| quote: | Originally posted by Shakka
Excellent post if your intent was to spread disinformation. This pseudointellectual commentary does nothing for your credibility. It's not even worth responding to. Care to enlighten us all as to how the Israeli Military is "Terrorizing" and "Torturing" Palestinians? |
Shakka, where is your argument? Is this how you debate? By saying that I’m spreading disinformation and that it’s not worth responding to? I’m sure you can’t respond to it if you wanted to because I’ve stated recognized facts. Pity. I think it’s you who’s not worth debating with. I have already stated how the Israeli military is terrorizing and torturing Palestinians, but I can see that what I say comes into one ear and out the other. I’ll have to keep trying. I don’t give up easily. The truth must be heard.
Viber, 18 year old Israelis join the military and are sent to the Palestinian territories. Let me explain something. Israeli soldiers are in control in the territories. No one can tell them what to do. So what if they’re 18? 18 year old bullies join the IDF don’t they. The Israeli soldiers do pick on Palestinians. They even pick on children going to school. They sometimes tell Palestinian women to lift their skirts. Once a soldier told an old man to get off his mule and kiss the mule’s ass. Picture that you’re an old man being bullied by an 18 year old with a gun. Once they had a man strip naked on the street, get on all fours and bark like a dog. Once an Israeli soldier had a bad day so he shot a three year old in the head. This is normal. This is what happens whether you like it or not. I’ve stated how the UN and various human rights NGO’s agree to this. Even Israeli human rights groups such as Bt’selem and Gush Shalom document this and act against it. Many times, a pregnant woman goes into labor and the ambulance is kept at an Israeli checkpoint for a long time, and the baby dies by the time they reach the hospital. You ever experienced the checkpoints? I have, it’s disgusting. Last year’s Israeli “incursion”, soldiers pissed in the pots and pans in Palestinian homes and shat on the carpet and threw bags of on the walls. Israeli soldiers place curfews and put road closures frequently without any reason. This has been happening since 1967. Palestinians have decided to rise up and fight off the Israeli military. Palestinians are tired of this occupation. Some are desperate and, unfortunately, resort to suicide attacks on innocent Israelis. They have nothing to live for, nothing to lose. They’re sick of the occupation, sick of the soldiers on the streets treating them like animals for 36 years. Again, the Palestinian uprising didn’t start until 28 years after the occupation started. There are 3.3 million Palestinians living in the world’s largest concentration camp. A UN report claims that 80% of children from 8 to 14 are suffering from psychological disorders as a result of the horror they have experienced in the last two years. When Palestinian children throw stones at tanks, Israeli soldiers tie them up with nylon string that is stronger than they are, blindfold them and take them off in trucks to unknown destinations. The few that return speak of the horror, the torture at the hand of the Israelis, but to date there are 8,000 disappeared Palestinians. All we know is that the Israelis take them away in front of their homes and families. Some are imprisoned in the Negev desert in the south, where in July and August temperatures reach 47 degrees.
Look at history. The Israeli soldiers’ behavior is normal in their position. Look at South America, when they were ruled by the military, it was similar. The military tortured the people. Look at Iraq, Saddam’s military tortured the people. Hitler’s armies occupied most of Europe, using sheer military might to spread Nazism. Resistance movements, armed not only with scavenged weapons, but also with courage, hope, persistence and ingenuity, opposed Hitler and were instrumental in preparing the way for Allied forces to defeat the Third Reich. To accomplish this, resistance fighters, men, women, and children, often had to resort to what we today would call terrorist acts in the absence of any other alternatives to regaining their people’s freedom.
“The Israeli Defense Forces have rendered a hellish battleground among the civilians in the Balata and Jenin refugee camps. We are getting reports of pure horror…The international conventions that protect non-combatants in times of conflicts are worthless, if they are not adhered to precisely at times of the greatest blood-letting. The world is watching, and Israel needs to end this pitiless assault on civilian refugee camps.” (UNRWA High Commissioner Peter Hansen, UNRWA press release “End the Horror in the Camps,” 7 April 2002).
The solution isn’t to ‘root out terrorists’. The solution is to end the occupation. Then there won’t be any more terrorists.
Israel doesn’t only destroy the houses of suicide bombers but of any houses in the way of would-be settlements. Also where the big apartheid wall is being built, and sometimes for the simple reason that no one can tell them anything. Many times one house is destroyed and four others come down with it. Either way it is against international law and human rights. Doesn’t matter if it’s a terrorist’s home. It’s a violation of human rights of the family. If you want the terror to stop, you must end the occupation.
The political reason for this is the expansionist Israeli strategy. Israel is an expansionist state. The Likud is anyway. Judea and Samaria ( West Bank) is an integral component of Eretz Israel (Greater Israel) of thousands of years ago. Zionists don’t want to let go of the territories. They believe it is their homeland, so the only way to keep it is to make life difficult for the native inhabitants so they can leave or be transferred or expelled or killed. Just look at the settlements, they’re proof enough that Israel wants the territories. The brave Israeli soldiers who refuse to serve in the occupied territories call the occupation “The War of the Settlements”. Of course, Israel and the media keeps vilifying us so people like you would support Israel’s actions in the territories.
Every human rights group that has examined Israel's practices has documented systematic and deliberate use of violence targeted at unarmed Palestinian civilians by Israeli forces. Physicians for Human Rights USA which investigated the high number of Palestinian deaths and injuries in the first months of the Intifada, concluded that:
"the pattern of injuries seen in many victims did not reflect IDF [Israel Defense Forces] use of firearms in life-threatening situations but rather indicated targeting solely for the purpose of wounding or killing."
[Source: PHR USA, 22 November 2000]
This finding was based on "the totality of the evidence" the investigators collected about :
"the high number of gunshots to the head; the volume of serious, disabling thigh injuries; the inappropriate firing of rubber bullets and rubber-coated steel bullets at close range; and the high proportion of Palestinian injuries and deaths."
The findings of Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch confirm this pattern. Israeli human rights group B'Tselem has documented and condemned the targeted use of violence against Palestinian civilians and has found evidence of systematic torture of thousands of Palestinian detainees, including children.
What has been confirmed by human rights groups has also been observed directly by journalists.
In October 2001, Harper's magazine published the "Gaza Diary" of journalist Chris Hedges. Hedges' entry for June 17, 2001 provides even more shocking evidence of the wanton and deliberate killing of Palestinian children by Israeli soldiers at Gaza's Khan Yunis refugee camp.
Hedges writes:
"I sit in the shade of a palm-roofed hut on the edge of the dunes, momentarily defeated by the heat, the grit, the jostling crowds, the stench of the open sewers and rotting garbage. A friend of Azmi's brings me, on a tray, a cold glass of tart, red carcade juice."
"Barefoot boys, clutching kites made out of scraps of paper and ragged soccer balls, squat a few feet away under scrub trees. Men in flowing white or gray galabias -- homespun robes -- smoke cigarettes in the shade of slim eaves. Two emaciated donkeys, their ribs protruding, are tethered to wooden carts with rubber wheels."
"It is still. The camp waits, as if holding its breath. And then, out of the dry furnace air, a disembodied voice crackles over a loudspeaker."
""Come on, dogs," the voice booms in Arabic. "Where are all the dogs of Khan Younis? Come! Come!""
"I stand up. I walk outside the hut. The invective continues to spew: "Son of a bitch!" "Son of a whore!" "Your mother's !""
"The boys dart in small packs up the sloping dunes to the electric fence that separates the camp from the Jewish settlement. They lob rocks toward two armored jeeps parked on top of the dune and mounted with loudspeakers. Three ambulances line the road below the dunes in anticipation of what is to come."
"A percussion grenade explodes. The boys, most no more than ten or eleven years old, scatter, running clumsily across the heavy sand. They descend out of sight behind a sandbank in front of me. There are no sounds of gunfire. The soldiers shoot with silencers. The bullets from the M-16 rifles tumble end over end through the children's slight bodies. Later, in the hospital, I will see the destruction: the stomachs ripped out, the gaping holes in limbs and torsos."
"Yesterday at this spot the Israelis shot eight young men, six of whom were under the age of eighteen. One was twelve. This afternoon they kill an eleven-year-old boy, Ali Murad, and seriously wound four more, three of whom are under eighteen. Children have been shot in other conflicts I have covered -- death squads gunned them down in El Salvador and Guatemala, mothers with infants were lined up and massacred in Algeria, and Serb snipers put children in their sights and watched them crumple onto the pavement in Sarajevo -- but I have never before watched soldiers entice children like mice into a trap and murder them for sport." |
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