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Horrible...Suicide inside The Eaton Centre.. (pg. 5)
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| Jem_hadar |
| quote: | Originally posted by dance2dabeat
What doesn't kill you only makes you stronger. |
Spoken like a true Nietzschean! |
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| rabbitjoker |
IMO - you are all clueless to what it is like to be in the position this person was in.
Unless anybody here has ~seriously~ attempted suicide - you have know idea of the mechanics/mentality behind it.
It's always easy to judge how things are, but one really has no idea until they have been there themselves.
Pontificate all you want. |
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| ~Delicious~ |
| quote: | Originally posted by Shaya007
There's nothing in the news about this;
Just heard from my sister that around 5:05pm someone threw himself from the third floor inside the Eaton centre and was blown to peices..,,,
The sad thing is she was 3 feet away from it when this happend!
and still i don't see anything on the news!!
or the net!!!
anyone?!!? |
Oh my god, that's so sad.
How's your sis? is she ok? that's so traumatic. That's how people get PTSD |
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| trancechaos |
| quote: | Originally posted by Fir3start3r
2. The person commiting the act is putting themself before others; their needs are more important than the needs of the people they are leaving behind. |
no dude, i totally dissagre, forcing someone that doesnt want to live is only the opposite of what you said. why should someone go through agony only to please someone else?
there are limits to putting other peoples needs first. not everyone lives a happy life. im not pro suicide, i think that its tragic when something like that happens and would never encourage someone to do it but at times we have to think about the person that wants to die and see whats best for them, you cant predict someones future, so who knows what tomorrow will bring, it could be better or it could be worse or it could be the same.
| quote: | | 3. It's an easy cop out on life; LIFE WILL HAVE PROBLEMS; they pass their problem(s) to others rather than sharing the burden to try and solve the problem(s). In this day and age there is no excuse for not trying or going to someone for help. There are TONS of resources they could have tried before their decision. |
easier said than done dude, some people do seek help only to find out that they cant be helped.
friends are lost, family turns on you and you have no where to go.
seeking professional help only has its limits, there are some problems a pshycologist cannot fix, then what?
you have no friends, no family and professionally you are a mental case. |
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| Alccode |
(Time to arise from hibernation, once more...)
To even begin to understand how truly suicidal people feel, sit down sometime when you have the opportunity and reflect on what it means to die from a subjective, non-intellectual viewpoint. Don't think about heaven or hell or whatever ... just the implications of having no sensation and no existence, forever. Not like sleeping for the night, where you'll wake up the next morning. You don't wake up. Then the next day, you don't wake up either. There is no wake up! You don't exist... the universe will end, and you still won't exist... forever! Keep focussing on it... at one point an immense tidal wave of fear and anguish will hit you, "OMG, I'm going to die!!"
This is an interesting experiment in at least two ways. First, you'll realize that there is some cognitive machinery in your mind that explicitly shields you from the thought of death. Otherwise you couldn't possibly function at all. You have to work really hard to bypass it, and only for a short time. Second, you'll see that whatever it is that goes on in a suicidal person's mind, it must be pretty damn intense for them to be able to face death willingly.
A truly suicidal person goes through tremendous pain, suffering, and anguish. It's absolutely unbearable and there's nothing in the world you'd rather have but to get rid of it -- yet you can't. That's why death seems preferrable, because life is so terrible. Sometimes the only hope for a suicidal person is the tiniest thing that alleviates the suffering. Even the memory of a face or a single thought forcibly repeated over and over, if it gives you some hope, can extract you from the suffering if you have a strong enough will. Otherwise...
That's why I think it's unfair to judge these people negatively. It takes tremendous courage to deal with suicide and those that fail aren't necessarily cowardly -- their level of courage just wasn't enough. Could you do better? Let's hope you never have to go through it!
So to even think that they deserve punishment for being "selfish" is ridiculous and cruel. Now there might be people, like some have said above, that attempt "suicide" mainly for social reasons. I put that in quotes since maybe they have a mistaken notion of what they're doing; they don't quite realize that it means death. Anyway I won't say anymore about this kind of "suicidal" since I don't know what it feels like.
In this post I wasn't trying to particularly defend the person originally mentioned having jumped off the balcony in the Eaton Centre. I just disagreed with the general sentiment regarding suicide I read here, and wanted to express it. That's all. |
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| DigiNut |
| quote: | Originally posted by dance2dabeat
What doesn't kill you only makes you stronger. |
Actually, no, the people out there with AIDS and bowel cancer tend to be pretty weak. Same goes for drug addicts, schizophrenics, and other neurotics.
You don't know what's going on in their lives, or in their heads. Who are you to tell them to get help? What makes you think help is possible?
Anyone here ever heard the phrase "compassion as contempt?" The thin veil of respect for "all human life" does not mask such an obvious lack of respect for one's individual life and individuality in general.
Sure, there are always the "cries for help", the people that haven't really thought the whole suicide thing through and are really just using the "threat" of suicide to get attention from the people around them that they feel they can't get any other way, and sure, those people should get help. But those people usually don't follow through with their suicides... when you see someone actually follow through with a suicide, there's a pretty good chance that they've exhausted all possible avenues of "help". |
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| Alccode |
Hmm, some people posted since I started typing. So now I can't resist another reply.
rabbitjoker, you are the man.
| quote: | Originally posted by trancechaos
easier said than done dude, some people do seek help only to find out that they cant be helped.
friends are lost, family turns on you and you have no where to go.
seeking professional help only has its limits, there are some problems a pshycologist cannot fix, then what?
you have no friends, no family and professionally you are a mental case. |
Right -- but it's even worse than that. Such musings don't even enter a suicidal person's mind; there is just anguish. So what you've said is still coming from a "normal" perspective. Much of the talk above falls into this category.
"But surely a suicidal person must have reasons for his symptoms and so can examine them?" Yes, but it makes no difference. Rationality is disconnected from emotionality both mentally and neurologically. You can give yourself quite compelling reasons rationally why you shouldn't be suffering ... you can even prove to yourself that it's worth living, but it'll do nothing for you.
(edit: grammar) |
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| Jem_hadar |
| quote: | Originally posted by Fir3start3r
Are you for real? :wtf:
No morals at all?
I really kinda thought it was straight forward but you asked...
1. It's unnatural. Life should be lived to it's fullest, natural extent. You'll never know the impact you could have on another life or beautiful experiences that await around the corner by ending it. |
Just because you’re alive does not mean it IS (or should be) your never-ending purpose in life to try to maintain your life! Even if you believe you SHOULD live life to the fullest, that doesn't mean you need to or that it’s "right" to. That’s a personal choice for EVERY individual to make. And just because you'll impact on the life of another, that is not an "absolute" justification dictating that you SHOULD live (though it could be a salient point for considering living!). And if a beautiful experience is waiting around the corner... well, maybe that experience won’t compensate in that person’s view for whut they have to put up with... hell, potentially, maybe nothing good will happen! And let’s pretend that something good WOULD happen, well that person is dead now, whut does he/she care?! His or her life is over... it’s no longer relevant. I’m not trying to say ppl should commit suicide, I myself would chose to live and HOPE got better or that I’d find some small pleasures in something, but not everyone is of my frame of mind... life to them is cruel. Let them be at peace.
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2. The person commiting the act is putting themself before others; their needs are more important than the needs of the people they are leaving behind. |
Well, it’s give and take… being completely selfless is STUPID… bc then ur not living your life, others are living it for you! If you’re honestly to the point where life is hopeless to you beyond a sliver of doubt and hopless beyond the possibility of salvage: why would u continue to live and be this way ? Just to placate your friends and family ? Sounds like they’re being somewhat selfish in wishing you to continue in your present, CLEARLY painful state of life.
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3. It's an easy cop out on life; LIFE WILL HAVE PROBLEMS; they pass their problem(s) to others rather than sharing the burden to try and solve the problem(s). In this day and age there is no excuse for not trying or going to someone for help. There are TONS of resources they could have tried before their decision.
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Yes, it’s an easy cope out, but so whut ? Its your choice. But I agree that ppl should realize life does have problems, it’s life, nothing’s perfect! And you should not be entirely selfish, so consider others to a point... try to see if there’s a reason you’re feeling as such (it CAN be a result of chemical imbalances in your body, for instance) and try to cope… talk to ppl, analyse yourself. As you said there are tons of resources… but with that said, if none of that works for you… whut? Work harder? At whut point do you stop “trying to work harder” and can you admit defeat?!?!
| quote: | | 4. They are not thinking clearly; they need help. Their view is that by escaping their suffering their problem(s) goes away. |
They may not be thinking clearly (ie. depressed, other trauma?), but they could be rational too… problems can build on other problems and escalate to levels that really do feel and appear insurmountable. And I would say, Yes, by escaping their suffering (ie. life) their problems DO go away… their life is over. How can you have problems when you are no longer living? You very effectively (yet drastically) took care of your problem, which was your existence!
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5. We need to be more vigilate with our friends and family. There is nothing wrong with a strong network of friends and family; they will be your safey net and pull you back up when life tries to knock you down. |
100% agree. Let others help you… let them try to affect you in a positive way and help you try to see life thru different eyes… a lot of can be resolved by changing your perspective or outlook on things!
I can see why you’re so appalled and disgusted by suicide… my god, if I’ experienced friends or family who had killed themselves, absolutely I’d hate it… but just bc I hate it does not mean it is fundamentally wrong.
So in short, I understand where you’re comin’ from, but that does not affirm your point that suicide is wrong and downright deplorable. It only affirms that we understand why you are so opposed to it.
I sympasize with your position though… hearing about it can only be so painful since you have first hand, very close and personal dealings with it! Hearing that others are choosing the same path cannot be enjoyable to hear. |
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| Jem_hadar |
| quote: | Originally posted by Alccode
(Time to arise from hibernation, once more...)
To even begin to understand how truly suicidal people feel, sit down sometime when you have the opportunity and reflect on what it means to die from a subjective, non-intellectual viewpoint. Don't think about heaven or hell or whatever ... just the implications of having no sensation and no existence, forever. Not like sleeping for the night, where you'll wake up the next morning. You don't wake up. Then the next day, you don't wake up either. There is no wake up! You don't exist... the universe will end, and you still won't exist... forever! Keep focussing on it... at one point an immense tidal wave of fear and anguish will hit you, "OMG, I'm going to die!!"
This is an interesting experiment in at least two ways. First, you'll realize that there is some cognitive machinery in your mind that explicitly shields you from the thought of death. Otherwise you couldn't possibly function at all. You have to work really hard to bypass it, and only for a short time. Second, you'll see that whatever it is that goes on in a suicidal person's mind, it must be pretty damn intense for them to be able to face death willingly.
A truly suicidal person goes through tremendous pain, suffering, and anguish. It's absolutely unbearable and there's nothing in the world you'd rather have but to get rid of it -- yet you can't. That's why death seems preferrable, because life is so terrible. Sometimes the only hope for a suicidal person is the tiniest thing that alleviates the suffering. Even the memory of a face or a single thought forcibly repeated over and over, if it gives you some hope, can extract you from the suffering if you have a strong enough will. Otherwise...
That's why I think it's unfair to judge these people negatively. It takes tremendous courage to deal with suicide and those that fail aren't necessarily cowardly -- their level of courage just wasn't enough. Could you do better? Let's hope you never have to go through it!
So to even think that they deserve punishment for being "selfish" is ridiculous and cruel. Now there might be people, like some have said above, that attempt "suicide" mainly for social reasons. I put that in quotes since maybe they have a mistaken notion of what they're doing; they don't quite realize that it means death. Anyway I won't say anymore about this kind of "suicidal" since I don't know what it feels like.
In this post I wasn't trying to particularly defend the person originally mentioned having jumped off the balcony in the Eaton Centre. I just disagreed with the general sentiment regarding suicide I read here, and wanted to express it. That's all. |
A trully phenominal post. I concur. Well put Alccode. very well put. |
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| Jem_hadar |
| quote: | Originally posted by trancechaos
forcing someone that doesnt want to live is only the opposite of what you said. why should someone go through agony only to please someone else?
there are limits to putting other peoples needs first. |
That's a point I was trying to make exactly! |
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| DigiNut |
I feel to compelled to add one more comment:
When we're little, our parents tell far-fetched stories to us in an attempt to shield us from the darkness of reality. Doggie Heaven, Santa Claus, God. What will you tell your kids when they ask you about the guy in the wheelchair, or the derelict screaming random things on the street? Probably not that the first guy got paralyzed in a car accident with his kids in the back and now he can't move, or that the second guy got addicted to smack, lost his family, and now spends every waking minute of his life trying to get his next hit. As kids we aren't supposed to know these things, and it's cruel to expose them to the reality of it because they really aren't emotionally mature enough to handle it.
But part of the transition from childhood into adulthood is learning that there is a reality out there. That some people out there are incurably ill. That some people out there spend every day in anguish. That some people out there are evil, that they're no more than ing animals. And that when you die, your body is either going to be incinerated or rot 10 feet underground (I suppose you think yours is going to be encased in glass and put in a museum). Are these things pleasant to think about? Obviously not, but reality isn't always pleasant. It's harsh, cold, and bitter. It's up to the individuals to find the good in their OWN lives - not other people's. Some people can't find the good, and some people just don't want to.
Personally, I'm tired of watching the trend of "prettifying" reality. Retarded people just have "special needs". Hardened criminals just had rough childhoods. Suicidal people just need a little comforting and support. We don't need to fear death because we're going to a better place after. Doesn't anyone stop for a minute to think about how ridiculous it all sounds?
I'll repeat the phrase compassion as contempt. You all convince yourselves that you're respecting these people and respecting humanity by putting in plastic wrap, spraying it with air freshener and laying it on a bed of roses. Guess what - it's still ! You're not morally better for wilfully blinding yourself to reality, you're moral cowards for selfishly pretending that their lives are less rotten than they really are just so your everyday life can be a prettier picture. With your words, you sweep these people under the rug, come up with cute names for them and pretend that they're really just normal people who can be "helped" back into your own personal version of reality. There is no normal! THIS IS WHO THEY ARE, AND THIS IS WHAT THEIR LIVES ARE LIKE.
Grow up, and learn to face the fact that there are ty things in life that aren't caused by some cockamamie clinical mental illness and can't be cured with counselling or prescription drugs. Some people are suicidal. Every day of their life seems worse than the last day, and one day they just snap and decide that there's only one way out of the suffering.
The world isn't perfect. Deal with it. |
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| trancechaos |
^^^^^^^^^
DIGINUT that was beautiful man, well said, i love the way you use words. |
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