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Fcuk the US Government!!! (pg. 8)
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| tiesto14 |
George MAYBE you are thinking of Operation Bojinka?
Where Ramzi YOusef planned hijacking 12 airliners and blowing them up over the Pacific...but the plan was caught by Phillipine authorities? |
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| tiesto14 |
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
Anyway, the people who flew the plance in to the WTC planned the attack, they went to Afghanistan to meet a rich man whom they presented their plan to. He liked the idea and gave them money. They went off and carried out the plan.
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You do know that only Atta and maybe one other terrorist on the planes knew what they were actually going to do right?
The plan was so secretive that the terrorists did not know their real mission until the final hour....
So tell me...how did they plan it...but didnt know what they were really going to do?
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: |
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| MisterOpus1 |
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
Anyway, the people who flew the plance in to the WTC planned the attack, they went to Afghanistan to meet a rich man whom they presented their plan to. He liked the idea and gave them money. They went off and carried out the plan. |
Help me out here George, because I really don't know enough about this (I only skimmed the 9/11 Commission report). So there's no evidence, direct or indirect, that bin Laden had this planned all along? So these guys planned it and just presented the idea to him?
| quote: | | You say the people you list above are members of al-Qaida, but what you actually mean is they have links to al-Qaida (ie they went to bin Laden for money and got it) |
I gotta admit that seems to be a bit of a semantics here - I think most would agree that having links to a terrorist group is fairly close, if not equivalent to being a part of a terrorist group.
| quote: | People went to Afghanistan to fight the Russians. They set up training camps to do that. They got balls (and egos) the size of cannon balls following their apparent defeat of the Soviets so they stayed tarining in the camps, attrcting people to come - for the aim of GOIN BACK TO THEIR OWN COUNTRIES and overthrowing the governments there. Bin Laden had set up some of these camps (his aim was/is the overthrow of the Saud family). Obviously there will be certain smaller groups (like the ones who planned 9/11) who would like to attack America (as a you for paying for Israeli occupation or for occupying the holy sites of Islam (Saudi Arabia)) and when they came to bin Laden he thought "oh what a good advert that would be for my plans to get recruits to help me overthrow the governments of the Middle East" and gave them money to do it.
Hope that cleared a few things up for you? |
Can't deny the rest of this. |
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| MisterOpus1 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Orbax
The best part of that was the logic and support for your ideas |
Though ht didn't present any, that doesn't mean none exists:
| quote: | Iraq New Terror Breeding Ground
War Created Haven, CIA Advisers Report
By Dana Priest
Washington Post Staff Writer
Friday, January 14, 2005; Page A01
Iraq has replaced Afghanistan as the training ground for the next generation of "professionalized" terrorists, according to a report released yesterday by the National Intelligence Council, the CIA director's think tank.
Iraq provides terrorists with "a training ground, a recruitment ground, the opportunity for enhancing technical skills," said David B. Low, the national intelligence officer for transnational threats. "There is even, under the best scenario, over time, the likelihood that some of the jihadists who are not killed there will, in a sense, go home, wherever home is, and will therefore disperse to various other countries."
.....
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...-2005Jan13.html |
and
| quote: | U.S. Figures Show Sharp Global Rise In Terrorism
State Dept. Will Not Put Data in Report
By Susan B. Glasser
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, April 27, 2005; Page A01
The number of serious international terrorist incidents more than tripled last year, according to U.S. government figures, a sharp upswing in deadly attacks that the State Department has decided not to make public in its annual report on terrorism due to Congress this week.
Overall, the number of what the U.S. government considers "significant" attacks grew to about 655 last year, up from the record of around 175 in 2003, according to congressional aides who were briefed on statistics covering incidents including the bloody school seizure in Russia and violence related to the disputed Indian territory of Kashmir.
Terrorist incidents in Iraq also dramatically increased, from 22 attacks to 198, or nine times the previous year's total -- a sensitive subset of the tally, given the Bush administration's assertion that the situation there had stabilized significantly after the U.S. handover of political authority to an interim Iraqi government last summer....
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...5042601623.html |
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| George Smiley |
I'm sure you can find more than a million! ;) |
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| George Smiley |
| quote: | VO: In January, 2001, a trial began in a Manhattan courtroom of four men accused of the embassy bombings in east Africa. But the Americans had also decided to prosecute bin Laden in his absence. But to do this under American law, the prosecutors needed evidence of a criminal organisation because, as with the Mafia, that would allow them to prosecute the head of the organisation even if he could not be linked directly to the crime. And the evidence for that organisation was provided for them by an ex-associate of bin Laden’s called Jamal al-Fadl.
JASON BURKE , AUTHOR, “AL QAEDA” : During the investigation of the 1998 bombings, there is a walk-in source, Jamal al-Fadl, who is a Sudanese militant who was with bin Laden in the early 90s, who has been passed around a whole series of Middle East secret services, none of whom want much to do with him, and who ends up in America and is taken on by—uh—the American government, effectively, as a key prosecution witness and is given a huge amount of American taxpayers’ money at the same time. And his account is used as raw material to build up a picture of Al Qaeda. The picture that the FBI want to build up is one that will fit the existing laws that they will have to use to prosecute those responsible for the bombing. Now, those laws were drawn up to counteract organised crime: the Mafia, drugs crime, crimes where people being a member of an organisation is extremely important. You have to have an organisation to get a prosecution. And you have al-Fadl and a number of other witness, a number of other sources, who are happy to feed into this. You’ve got material that, looked at in a certain way, can be seen to show this organisation’s existence. You put the two together and you get what is the first bin Laden myth—the first Al Qaeda myth. And because it’s one of the first, it’s extremely influential.
VO: The picture al-Fadl drew for the Americans of bin Laden was of an all-powerful figure at the head of a large terrorist network that had an organised network of control. He also said that bin Laden had given this network a name: “Al Qaeda.” It was a dramatic and powerful picture of bin Laden, but it bore little relationship to the truth.
[ EXCERPT, CNN EXCLUSIVE VIDEO : BIN LADEN AND SOLDIERS ]
VO: The reality was that bin Laden and Ayman Zawahiri had become the focus of a loose association of disillusioned Islamist militants who were attracted by the new strategy. But there was no organisation. These were militants who mostly planned their own operations and looked to bin Laden for funding and assistance. He was not their commander. There is also no evidence that bin Laden used the term “Al Qaeda” to refer to the name of a group until after September the 11th, when he realized that this was the term the Americans have given it.
[ CUT TO MANHATTAN SKYLINE ]
VO: In reality, Jamal al-Fadl was on the run from bin Laden, having stolen money from him. In return for his evidence, the Americans gave him witness protection in America and hundreds of thousands of dollars. Many lawyers at the trial believed that al-Fadl exaggerated and lied to give the Americans the picture of a terrorist organisation that they needed to prosecute bin Laden.
SAM SCHMIDT , DEFENCE LAWYER EMBASSY BOMBINGS TRIAL: And there were selective portions of al-Fadl’s testimony that I believe was false, to help support the picture that he helped the Americans join together. I think he lied in a number of specific testimony about a unified image of what this organisation was. It made Al Qaeda the new Mafia or the new Communists. It made them identifiable as a group and therefore made it easier to prosecute any person associated with Al Qaeda for any acts or statements made by bin Laden—who talked a lot.
BURKE : The idea—which is critical to the FBI’s prosecution—that bin Laden ran a coherent organisation with operatives and cells all around the world of which you could be a member is a myth. There is no Al Qaeda organisation. There is no international network with a leader, with cadres who will unquestioningly obey orders, with tentacles that stretch out to sleeper cells in America, in Africa, in Europe. That idea of a coherent, structured terrorist network with an organised capability simply does not exist.
VO: What did exist was a powerful idea that was about to inspire a single, devastating act that would lead the whole world into believing the myth that had begun to be constructed in the Manhattan courtroom.
VO: The attack on America by 19 hijackers shocked the world. It was Ayman Zawahiri’s new strategy, implemented in a brutal and spectacular way. But neither he nor bin Laden were the originators of what was called the “Planes Operation.” It was the brainchild of an Islamist militant called Khalid Sheik Mohammed, who came to bin Laden for funding and help in finding volunteers. But in the wake of panic created by the attacks, the politicians reached for the model which had been created by the trial earlier that year: the hijackers were just the tip of a vast, international terrorist network which was called, “Al Qaeda.” |
Sorry for the huge cut and paste (the last paragraph is the most important as far as this argument goes, but the preceding ones talk about the myth of "al-Qaida")
This is taken from the transcript to the highly acclaimed BBC documentary "The Power of Nightmares (Episode 3)". You can read the transcript and watch the third episode (as well as links to the first two esisodes definately worth a look)
Jason Burke (who is quoted above) is the granddaddy of al-Qaida. His book is the 'Bible' when it comes to al-Qaida and he is considered one of the formost experts on al-Qaida. It was his book (which I have read and which I reccommend anyone who wants to learn about al-Qaida read) that I think gave the documentary its ideas (well, obviously seein as he's in em!) He says al-Qaida is an ideology, not a terrorist group (as we are led to believe). "You are a member of al-Qaida if you say you are" is something he says. 9/11 inspired many in the Muslim world to bin Laden's ideology (and we saw a number of attacks around the world following 9/11) What we have now, is more dangerous than al-Qaida (ie the al-Qaida we are supposed to believe in) What we have now is groups all over the world with the "al-Qaida" ideology, carrying out attacks 'in the name of al-Qaida' (which gives the false impression there is a global network of terrorists waiting for bin Laden's commands) |
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| tiesto14 |
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
I'm sure you can find more than a million! ;) |
Question is can you show me one link to back up your statement? |
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| George Smiley |
| quote: | Originally posted by MisterOpus1
I gotta admit that seems to be a bit of a semantics here - I think most would agree that having links to a terrorist group is fairly close, if not equivalent to being a part of a terrorist group.
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No not at all. The marxist revolutionary terrorist groups of the 70s all had links to each other (the IRA, PFLP and other Palestinain groups, Baader Mienhoff, Red Hands, Japanese Red Army) indeed there were a lot of joint operations esp with the Palestinians and European Marxist groups...but you wouldn't say that a member of the IRA was a member of the Baader Meinhoff group just cos they had links. "Link" is just a way of creating an impression (all the attacks that followed 9/11 had links to al-Qaida in some fashion, but none, if I am not mistaken, were actually carried out by members of al-Qaida - its like I said above, they are doing it "in the name of al-Qaida" - the ideology) |
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| George Smiley |
| quote: | Originally posted by tiesto14
Question is can you show me one link to back up your statement? |
guess you should have waited 30 seconds! :D |
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| tiesto14 |
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
guess you should have waited 30 seconds! :D |
no i mean a link to an outside source that can back up your claim?
With your logic, Al Qaida is as innocent as the Easter Bunny Foundation.
I am still troubled for your sanity that you beleive that these terrorists planned 9.11. Did u know that they did not know what they were going to do until the final hour? So if they planned it how come they didnt know? Only one who knew was Atta and one other.
Bin Laden wanted to attack America and Sheik Mohammad came up with the 9.11 plan...and then Atta and the terrorists carried it out...those are the facts. |
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| George Smiley |
| quote: | Originally posted by tiesto14
no i mean a link to an outside source that can back up your claim? |
What do you mean an "outside source"?
| quote: | | With your logic, Al Qaida is as innocent as the Easter Bunny Foundation. |
Did you actually read my post? Al-Qaida (ie bin laden and his close associates) are not innocent as they funded and encouraged the 9/11 attacks. But thats all al-Qaida ever was - a small group of people (with a very rich saudi) who had a view (of the Muslim world) and financed operations they thought could achieve that view
| quote: | | I am still troubled for your sanity that you beleive that these terrorists planned 9.11. Did u know that they did not know what they were going to do until the final hour? So if they planned it how come they didnt know? Only one who knew was Atta and one other. |
Well I would hazard a guess and say at least four knew!! And those that didn't know might have been recruited from the training camps, either way, it makes no difference to the argument that bin Laden (and al-Qaida) did not plan the operation (as you say below)
| quote: | | Bin Laden wanted to attack America and Sheik Mohammad came up with the 9.11 plan...and then Atta and the terrorists carried it out...those are the facts. |
You didn't read my post did you? :rolleyes:
Here's the bit you were supposed to read...(please do)
| quote: | | The attack on America by 19 hijackers shocked the world. It was Ayman Zawahiri’s new strategy, implemented in a brutal and spectacular way. But neither he nor bin Laden were the originators of what was called the “Planes Operation.” It was the brainchild of an Islamist militant called Khalid Sheik Mohammed, who came to bin Laden for funding and help in finding volunteers. But in the wake of panic created by the attacks, the politicians reached for the model which had been created by the trial earlier that year: the hijackers were just the tip of a vast, international terrorist network which was called, “Al Qaeda.” |
So you see, Sheik Momammed was not a member of al-Qaida he just wanted funding and help finding people to carry it out |
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