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Terrorists Attack London's Transportation System (pg. 15)
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| yankeeBaby |
| quote: | Originally posted by Dj Smitty20
Who else right now has any kind of beef with Britain or British forces, etc? It's not the IRA...at least they aren't actively trying to kill civilians these days. |
I saw on the news yesterday that an Islamic extremist group has claimed responsibility for the London attacks....I didn't catch WHICH group it was tho. |
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| Dj Smitty20 |
| quote: | Originally posted by tamk
dude go read your history books...that was one of the most ignorant statements ever, i feel embarrassed for you. |
Actually, I'm a history student and I'm talking in general terms.
Think about the last 500 years. Where have the major, life altering inventions come from? I'm talking automobiles, computers, trains, electricity, steam, phones, etc. It's just an observation.
And Kelly, I think it's pretty obvious to everyone it was some kind of radical muslim group responsible for this. It'll be awhile until we know who..or possibly never.
More scares in Birmingham today...20,000 people evacuated from downtown in England's 2nd largest city. check it out www.cbc.ca |
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| zoogla |
| quote: | Originally posted by Dj Smitty20
Actually, I'm a history student and I'm talking in general terms.
Think about the last 500 years. Where have the major, life altering inventions come from? I'm talking automobiles, computers, trains, electricity, steam, phones, etc. It's just an observation.
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I guess your studies ignored advances in art, architecture, math and science?
http://www.omarfoundation.org/Cultu...y%20Science.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_science
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Kindi
http://www.islamicarchitecture.org/...l-patterns.html
http://www.muslimheritage.com/Default.aspx
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabesque
And there were actually advances in technology while Europe was in the Dark Ages:
http://muslimheritage.com/topics/de...m?ArticleID=284
...My GOD, wikipedia is an AMAZING RESOURCE!!!! I am NOT an expert so I can't vouch for everything but it seems to be a good, objective start to those seeking the facts.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam
You can see what I was talking about the interpretation of the Quran here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qur%27...of_the_Qur.27an
An excellent resource to elaborate on Shadowolf's theories of Islam:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamist_terrorism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamophobia |
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| Dj Smitty20 |
Interesting stuff...but notice that I did say the "beginning" of Middle Eastern society until about 500 years ago.
Look at this quote I found on one of the sites.
"With the fall of Muslim Spain in 1492, scientific and technological initiative generally passed to Christian Europe and led to what we now call the Renaissance and the Enlightenment. The fiqh of Islamic Law froze more or less along classical/medieval lines, and no longer encouraged science."
That is more or less what I was saying. In the last five centuries, nearly all innovations/advancements came from Europe and societies related directly to Western culture (British colonies, etc). |
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| Magnetonium |
| quote: | Originally posted by Dj Smitty20
Interesting stuff...but notice that I did say the "beginning" of Middle Eastern society until about 500 years ago.
Look at this quote I found on one of the sites.
"With the fall of Muslim Spain in 1492, scientific and technological initiative generally passed to Christian Europe and led to what we now call the Renaissance and the Enlightenment. The fiqh of Islamic Law froze more or less along classical/medieval lines, and no longer encouraged science."
That is more or less what I was saying. In the last five centuries, nearly all innovations/advancements came from Europe and societies related directly to Western culture (British colonies, etc). |
Ok now .. I have to agree with fayraree. Before the decline of Muslim empire that was started by Mohammed (sorry if I got the spelling wrong) at about 600-ish AD by a way of conquest, Muslims were involved in science and culture (I must add that they were very tolerant of people of other faith living in their empire), and they contributed a lot. After the empire's decline and subsequent collapse, European kingdoms, which were strongly influenced by this culture in the first place, took off where moslem culture was left. However, there were many great discoveries and developments done in Muslim lands since. It was not on a scale as great as the western countries, but they contributed anyway. I dont know much about moslem culture, so I cant come up with detailed examples.
Its kinda like comparing my russian culture to the western and saying that russians didnt contribute anything until the 19-20th century. Muslims and Russians were both connected to the western world and subsequently contibuted to it in one way or another. They both took some western ideas, and introduced alternatives and new discoveries. |
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| zoogla |
| quote: | Originally posted by Dj Smitty20
Interesting stuff...but notice that I did say the "beginning" of Middle Eastern society until about 500 years ago.
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That's not what you said earlier...
| quote: | Originally posted by Dj Smitty20
...but since largely converting to Islam 1200 years ago, haven't really given anyone...anything? |
But I guess you corrected yourself (without admitting it)...
I believe your point was not about what came out of Muslim countries in the last 500 years (because in modern times, the only thing coming out of Muslim countries is OIL) but rather the religion had something to do with a limitation in thought, which led to no innovation or contribution to society.
As Magneto already pointed out, the advances that western countries had in the last 500 years as you say, were built on the platform created by the Islamic empire. You should note that by reading the facts.
Also, your quote about the decline basically proves that there WAS contribution from the Islamic empire prior to 1492, and then, due to corruption and widespread divergence from the teachings of Islam (this is documented in Islamic history books), the Ottoman empire declined and obviously there was a shutdown in the innovation.
Therefore, if there is any correlation between Islam and innovation, it's that Islam HELPED foster innovation. There are sections of the Quran that refer to embryonic development; this was 1400 years ago!
Anyway, enough of beating this issue to death. I think I've made my point. Good call, tamk; I wouldn't have said anything if Smitty hadn't responded to your (slightly rude) post so rudely ;) :p!
Also, an excellent point about Russian culture, Magneto. |
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| Cyrus King |
| quote: | Originally posted by Dj Smitty20
How was occupying Afghanistan not justifed? The government there, if you can call it a government, was dangerous not only to the western world, but the people who they claimed to represent. Even fence-sitting Canada (not always a bad thing) sent 8,000 troops there to fight. Iraq is a different issue that, frankly, has been beaten to death. |
OCCUPATION ITSELF IS UNJUSTIFIED!
The government there was dangerous??? And did you know that this very government was pretty much befreinded by the US for years?? They were dangerous becuase the US trained the Taliban to fight russia in order to get thoser communists out of thier opium rich colony. They helped train the people they later destroyed through carpet bombing the whole nation after 9/11
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Britain is an ally of the United States and has been for some 60 odd years. Militarily and economically, they are the buffer state between the USA and Europe. Despite nearly 80 percent of Britons opposing the Iraq War, they still are subjected to this bull. It sounds to me like you are trying to find some justification. I dont' care what governments do...striking at innocent people is cowardly and deserving of the most severe retribution. I suggest MI5 go to town on all suspected Muslims in the UK with terrorist connections and start the deportations en masse. Anybody shady...it's time to go. I forget his name...but the Islamic leader in Britain. I can't understand why he is still allowed to even live in the UK with the things that he says. |
Im not trying to justify the murder of innocent civilians as many incompetent arguers here usually claim i do. I am simply making a correlation between what is happening on a geopolitical scale and how that can send massives politcally driven hate waves throughout the middle east. Reality check buddy... you piss off the muslim world or the world in general.. youll get a few lunatics willing to kill for thier own defined "revenge"
By the way.. you sound alot like a guy named Hitler when he segregated a race of people and locked them up in something called concentration camps.
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I don't care if this is the only way for terrorists to fight for what they believe in either. It still isn't right and trying to use biblical justification is simply twisted. Of course, Muslim civilisation hasn't been able to compete militarily with Europe/North America for centuries. They had their time of Empires and conquering.
Anyway...this is just an observation but isn't it odd that Middle Eastern society contributed so much to world history and culture in the beginning (ie 2500 years ago) but since largely converting to Islam 1200 years ago, haven't really given anyone...anything? |
I agree with you on this though :) |
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| DigiNut |
| quote: | Originally posted by Cyrus King
By the way.. you sound alot like a guy named Hitler when he segregated a race of people and locked them up in something called concentration camps. |
It's usually a good idea to refrain from likening the people you disagree with to Hitler. Even the most casual reference has a way of making an otherwise moderate/informed argument read like an inflamed rant. Even if there are certain similarities, is there anything to be gained by attacking the person instead of their arguments?
| quote: | Originally posted by fayraree
...My GOD, wikipedia is an AMAZING RESOURCE!!!! I am NOT an expert so I can't vouch for everything but it seems to be a good, objective start to those seeking the facts. |
Wikipedia is ok, but it's certainly not the be-all-and-end-all of scholarly resources. Given that anyone with an Internet connection is allowed to post or edit content, you have to take everything you read there with a grain of salt because there's no way to verify the integrity of the information or ascertain its bias.
(Well, there is one way, and that's to read carefully for prejudicial language and cross-check the important facts... but I think most of the people who rely on Wikipedia to support their arguments don't do that). |
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| zoogla |
| ^^^Good call, Digi, both of them! :) |
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| yankeeBaby |
| quote: | Originally posted by Dj Smitty20
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And Kelly, I think it's pretty obvious to everyone it was some kind of radical muslim group responsible for this. It'll be awhile until we know who..or possibly never.
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I know it is obvious, darling, I was just pointing out that a specific group HAD claimed responsibility because at the time you didn't know that one had ;) And there WAS a certain group who claims it, but I really need to get off my ass and find out who, because the name has slipped my mind (seeing as I saw it on the news, like, 3 days ago!!) |
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| zoogla |
QUICK--CP24 a great segment on what the TTC is doing about terrorism.
A good friend of mine, Nader is on the show discussing the Muslim perspective...
EDIT:
Damn, just finished...just the 1st 1/2 hour of HOUR TOWN...I hate it when I miss the good stuff! :( |
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| zoogla |
Here's further clarification on how terrorism is completely forbidden in Islam...
Source: The Globe and Mail
British Sunnis issue 'fatwa' over bombings
Sunday, July 17, 2005 Updated at 6:40 PM EDT
Associated Press
Birmingham, England — Ten days after Islamic radicals carried out deadly attacks on the London transport system, Britain's largest Sunni Muslim group Sunday issued a binding religious edict, a fatwa, condemning the July 7 suicide bombings as the work of a "perverted ideology."
In the northern city of Leeds, which has been a focus of the investigation into the bombings, six men were arrested on immigration charges. West Yorkshire police said the men are not believed to be involved in the bombings, but offered no further details on why the six were arrested.
"At this stage, these arrests are not being linked to the incidents in London. However, we are working closely with officers from the Metropolitan Police anti-terrorism branch as part of this inquiry," another police spokeswoman said, speaking on customary condition of anonymity.
The Sunni Council denounced the bombings as anti-Islamic and said the Koran, the Muslim holy book, forbade suicide attacks.
"Who has given anyone the right to kill others? It is a sin. Anyone who commits suicide will be sent to Hell," said Mufti Muhammad Gul Rehman Qadri, the council chairman. "What happened in London can be seen as a sacrilege. It is a sin to take your life or the life of others."
The council said Muslims should not use "atrocities being committed in Palestine and Iraq" to justify attacks such as those in London that killed 55 when suicide bombers struck in three Underground trains and a double-decker bus, the fatwa declared.
"We equally condemn those who may have been behind the masterminding of these acts, those who incited these youths in order to further their own perverted ideology," Mr. Qadri said.
Also Saturday, government officials dismissed claims that lax attitudes allowed homegrown suicide bombers to develop. The Sunday Times reported that one suspected bomber, 30-year-old Mohammad Sidique Khan, was investigated last year by MI5, Britain's domestic intelligence service, but was not regarded as a threat to national security or subsequently put under surveillance.
MI5 began evaluating Mr. Khan, a Briton of Pakistani ancestry, during an inquiry that focused on an alleged plot to explode a large truck bomb outside a target in London thought to be a nightclub in Soho, the newspaper said. The private inquiry reportedly evaluated hundreds of potential suspects.
The Metropolitan Police and a spokesman for Prime Minister Tony Blair declined comment.
The bombings have prompted the government to propose new legislation outlawing "indirect incitement" of terrorism — including public praise for those who carry out attacks.
Nevertheless, Charles Falconer, the Secretary for Constitutional Affairs and Lord Chancellor, denied that the government had not been diligent in screening political refugees from Muslim countries, making Britain a fertile recruiting ground for Islamic terrorism.
"In terms of asylum, our policy is: If you are in fear of persecution, you are entitled to come here," the Minister said on BBC television. "Obviously, if you then seek to attack the very state that you come to, that gives rise to different questions.
"But I don't think we have been ultraliberal.... What we have got to do now is unify all the forces in our society, in particular in the Muslim community, against those people who are fundamentally at odds with our values."
The fatwa was issued as investigators in Leeds continued to focus on an Islamic bookshop and a house near the home of one of the four alleged bombers, 22-year-old Shahzad Tanweer.
Mr. Tanweer, born in Britain to Pakistani parents, was believed to be one of the Underground train bombers and reportedly visited two religious schools on a trip to Pakistan.
Pakistani intelligence agents have questioned students, teachers and administrators at the school in central Lahore, and at least two other al-Qaeda-linked radical Islamic centres, showing pictures and a dossier on Mr. Tanweer.
Tanweer, Khan and 18-year-old Hasib Hussain, who were all from the Leeds area. Mr. Hussain was also a Briton whose parents were from Pakistan. The fourth suspect, Jamaican-born Germaine Lindsay, 19, who came to Britain as an infant, lived in Luton, a city north of London.
Police on Saturday released an image captured by surveillance cameras showing all four bombers with backpacks entering the Luton train station on the morning of the attacks. Investigators say the four took a train from Luton to London's King's Cross station, where they split up to carry out the bombings.
Officers have also been searching the Leeds home of an Egyptian biochemist for more evidence after investigators reportedly found traces of explosives in the man's bathtub. Magdy Mahmoud Mustafa el-Nashar is being interrogated by Egyptian authorities, who say the biochemist denies having any connection to the attacks. He was arrested at the Cairo airport in the days after the bombing.
Egypt is not prepared to hand Mr. el-Nashar over to Britain, Egyptian security officials said. British investigators are in Cairo to observe the questioning. The two countries have no extradition treaty.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/serv...fatwa+in+london |
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