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Utah Rave Ends in Tears (pg. 5)
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| jon jon |
| quote: | Originally posted by kabelicious
true, there are some bad parts but no more than the rest of the world. :)
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No no I'm gonna have to stop ya there, Canada is hardly perfect but you guys are definitely a good head and shoulders ahead of the game in terms of arrogance/ destructiveness. What a pair!
I love my country. |
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| starsearcher |
| There are lots of good things about the US...foreign policy and leadership is definitely not one of them...but there are many other good things about it. |
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| Jayx1 |
| quote: | Originally posted by jon jon
No no I'm gonna have to stop ya there, Canada is hardly perfect but you guys are definitely a good head and shoulders ahead of the game in terms of arrogance/ destructiveness. What a pair!
I love my country. |
were you around in 1999-2000? We certianly had (and still do) own own brand of ignorance, arrogance and misinformation. Canadians just tend to hide the oppression in the form of policy and rules instead of violence. But the same outcome is achieved. Namely your freedom to associate, congregate, and enjoy a good time is predetermined by the authorities. |
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| Moral Hazard |
| quote: | Originally posted by Jayx1
were you around in 1999-2000? We certianly had (and still do) own own brand of ignorance, arrogance and misinformation. Canadians just tend to hide the oppression in the form of policy and rules instead of violence. But the same outcome is achieved. Namely your freedom to associate, congregate, and enjoy a good time is predetermined by the authorities. |
I agree with you regarding our own problems, however, I would rather get hit with a by-law then the but of an assult rifle. |
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| Jayx1 |
Eye Magazine March 30 2000
| quote: | Menace to society?
Pressed to halt nightclub violence, the mayor and police chief pick on the kids
BY VERN SMITH
Four fatal shootings in three months at downtown after-hours clubs have city and provincial officials talking like gangbusters. But in their rush to address a very real problem, authorities have lumped together the shootings with two fatal drug overdoses in 1999 that happened at raves. The result: an official war on rave culture.
The crackdown hit with full force on the evening of March 25 at the CNE's Better Living Building, where police arrested 19 people for drug offences at what has been described as Toronto's biggest-ever rave. But the propaganda offensive began March 14, when Mayor Mel Lastman and Police Chief Julian Fantino took aim at the after-hours scene. "Toronto will not tolerate illegal after-hours clubs and raves," said Lastman in an announcement following a daylong conference involving police, politicians and officials from the city and the province.
While the mayor and the police chief seem eager to get tough on everything that happens after last call, downtown councillors and those close to the city's rave scene say it's a mistake to lump together semi-legal after-hours clubs that attract gun-toting clients with the more blissed-out rave culture.
"I'm concerned about the rhetoric," says Kim Stanford, chair of the Toronto Dance Safety Committee, a group of local scenesters and city officials that created a voluntary set of rules last year aimed at making raves safer. "I place it within a context of historical moral furore -- we had uproars over Chubby Checker and the Twist."
The trouble, she says, is that kids are making old folks uncomfortable all over again -- so much so that the old folks can only see, in Lastman's words, "dens of drug and guns."
"People become threatened when youth create their own culture, and that's how I understand what's happening here. It's a photo opportunity."
The March 14 announcement by Lastman and Fantino promised to form a "strike force" combining law enforcement with health, building, bylaw, and zoning inspectors that would move on raves, booze cans and any other all-night establishment that attracts the wrong clientele.
In a speech a few days before by Fantino for a downtown business association, he promised harsh measures against clubs that cater to late-night revellers.
"Obviously, they are a magnet for a whole lot of drug dealing, a whole lot of gun play and other violence," Fantino said. "You're going to have to be charitable, to let police do their thing."
Lastman is calling on the province to give the city powers to temporarily suspend liquor licences. The mayor doesn't know how many clubs and parties he's talking about, but he sure knows what he doesn't like.
"I've never been to a rave," he says, "but I do know we close them down."
The fiery rhetoric ignored months of quiet work by city officials and local rave promoters to make all-night rave parties safer and less of a nuisance to residential neighbourhoods.
The status of raves was supposed to have been worked out last year when Stanford sat on a task force with city officials and club promoters to help draft a list of protocols for the Toronto rave scene.
The protocols, adopted by city council, say a rave should be in a building that's properly zoned for such an event. There's also a checklist that includes guidelines for capacity, fire exits, ventilation and water supply, as well as guidelines for having ambulance workers and police officers on hand in case of trouble.
None of which has much to do with the kind of downtown nightclubs that have been the scene of shootings. Nightclubs have their own set of problems, including one caused by a recent police decision.
Just prior to his replacement by Julian Fantino, outgoing police chief David Boothby ordered that police can no longer work as paid-duty officers for establishments that make their money selling booze. Paid-duty jobs like watching over film shoots remain OK.
"The only problem now is that police are saying they don't want officers to do paid duty," says downtown councillor Olivia Chow, who helped bring the rave guidelines forward.
"Front-line officers who deal with this all the time thought it was really important to have paid duty," she says. "It always worked, so I think we should consider going back to that."
Raves, Chow adds, are well-known to be non-violent, but she says the city should be moving in on "illegal booze cans."
"Don't drag in all the raves that are totally above board," says Chow. "If you close those down, then everything goes underground and you're asking for trouble. Once you send it underground, it'll just pop up in different places. By the time you get there, it's too late."
THE NUMBERS GAME
Along with reneging on the rave protocol, Toronto police have responded to downtown nightclub violence with a series of headline-grabbing statements that don't seem to hold up under questioning.
"I'm not going to split hairs with you about what constitutes legal or illegal activity at whatever given time," said Fantino. "We have all witnessed far too many acts of violence associated with these activities that have resulted in some 49 murders and many woundings since 1991."
The Toronto Police Service could not confirm Fantino's count of 49 murders, despite eye's repeated requests for particulars. This lack of confirmation is troubling in light of another claim made March 14 that pegged Toronto as "North America's ecstasy capital" -- a hot-air balloon that drew snickers from American drug enforcement officials in interviews with eye last week.
Detective Randy Smith, head of the Clandestine Laboratory section of Toronto's Major Drugs unit, backtracked on those e-commerce claims when contacted by eye. "I think that line itself, that Toronto is the North American capital of ecstasy, that's kind of a summation of what it could become if we didn't do what we're doing," said Smith.
But are police making ecstasy a fall guy for shootings at after-hours clubs?
"Any drug organization has four sides -- violence, territory and associates, with money in the centre," says Smith. "If it's through loyalties or partnerships with DJs, with club owners, with private security companies -- whatever way they think they can get the advantage, they will.
"People keep getting mixed up between the legal and illegal venues, but you can have a legal venue with illegal activity," says Smith. "We're police. We concentrate on what is illegal. That's what we've been entrusted to do."
Councillor Kyle Rae, who has tangled with owners of some downtown trouble spots, says his problem is with liquor establishments that stay open into the wee hours as dance clubs.
"They continue to provide liquor," says Rae. "Or turn off the liquor and pull out the water, and the drug dealers arrive."
He says he doesn't have a problem with ravers -- although he does think some promoters are part of the problem.
"I believe promoters or owner/operators are more involved in the drug trade in Toronto than ever before," he says. "They have their own designated drug dealers who the bouncers at the front door are told to let go, let through, and do your deals because they get a percentage."
The idea of raves and ecstasy fuelling after-hours violence certainly doesn't make sense to Kim Stanford.
"People in the rave scene are very upset and have come together to work with the city to make sure that kind of thing doesn't happen," she says. "We don't play down the tragedies for the families of young men who have died from drug overdoses, but when you put it into context of the kinds of risks people face when they cross the street or hurdle down steep slopes on pieces of plastic, the panic now that's associated with some of the possible risks is way out of line."
Dr. Benedikt Fischer, a research scientist at the Centre for Addiction and Mental Health and assistant professor of public health at the University of Toronto, agrees that rave culture has come in for some unfair police scrutiny.
"This is really not about informing the public anymore. This is constructing a scare really, and probably freaking out parents. That's the purpose of this exercise. They want to create a negative climate and air of inaccessibility around raves, and I think they'll keep on doing this for a while. We're going toward the prohibition of raves in Toronto." ,
Rave crackdown: the first night
Police arrested 19 people at the March 25 Connected party at the Better Living Centre. Those who were there say security was tight.
JACKIE: I saw plenty of security -- police lining the streets, six or seven women patting people down as they walked in and four more officers just before you walk in the door. Two security people were at the washroom doors giving a time limit, then people were kicked out. I met this girl in the lineup in the washroom who brought her own E in, in a pouch sewn in the front of her underwear. I heard on the news about 19 people being arrested, but there were 12,000 people there -- I mean, big deal. In a controlled environment like that, I don't have a problem with it. If this goes underground like it was 10 years ago, with the drugs available now, I think that's when I'd be concerned.
CHANTAL: I knew people were on something, but everybody was still very articulate. There were a few people who were a little too high -- the look on their faces, they were being held up by friends -- but I just saw a little bit of that, and no one that looked seriously in trouble.
EMMA: I got there at about 11 and I saw one kid already in handcuffs outside. The security was extremely thorough -- you couldn't bring in cameras or even flyers for other parties. Security checked you and the cops were right behind them so that if they found anything on you, they could arrest you right away. Cops were inside with flashlights, looking everywhere. It was the most police surveillance I've ever seen at a party. I think probably the majority of the people were pretty high.
TIM: When I do drugs, I don't like to get completely out of my skull. I just like a buzz, kinda. I just keep it to a minimum, so I don't freak out and do stupid things. I hate to see people get really mashed, people who can't walk and stuff.
ANONYMOUS: I got my E's from a friend of mine who I ran into at the party. We were going to get it before, like usual, but it just fell through. We paid $80 for four. We kind of got a deal. We took one each at the party, and one after. I'm fully aware that it's probably psychologically addictive and messes with your kidneys and your spine. I don't do it that often. I'm also fully aware that alcohol is dangerous for you, but I still drink. I know E is probably worse, but everyone likes to do risky things and be dangerous once in a while. -- HANNAH SUNG |
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| The Highroller |
| That was quite the disgusting sight. I hope all of our USTA friends know about this and are doing something about it. |
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| feems |
| This is really sad so all this trouble cause a couple of kids were having a party and all they found was pills, pot, coke, and drug paraphenelia the were 250 ppl and one girl took a little too much ... man no wonder these kids come up here to party ... youd think with everything going on in the states police would find better things to do then brake up a party :whip: |
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| StereoPrincess |
i think we are all jumping to conclusions here.
a few points to consider:
1. Yes there was drugs at this party.
2. The cops had a plan to bust drugs at this party.
3. They did their job.
If I was the authorities, this would be the best way to bust people for drug use.
I think some of the "victims" are not being absolutely truthful.
There is no way the police can dispatch a helicopter and a whole crew of officers without a warrant or some sort of reason to bust up this party. |
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| jon jon |
| quote: | Originally posted by StereoPrincess
If I was the authorities |
:eek: |
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| Moral Hazard |
| quote: | Originally posted by StereoPrincess
a few points to consider:
1. Yes there was drugs at this party.
2. The cops had a plan to bust drugs at this party.
3. They did their job.
If I was the authorities, this would be the best way to bust people for drug use.
I think some of the "victims" are not being absolutely truthful.
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Certainly, if the police have a mandate to bust kids for possession then a rave is a great place to do so, granted.
That said, busting kids for possesion does not necessitate para-military troops storming the party beating the kids and shutting the entire thing down. The concern most of us are raising is the method the police employed to stage this "raid". |
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| kabelicious |
| quote: | Originally posted by jon jon
No no I'm gonna have to stop ya there, Canada is hardly perfect but you guys are definitely a good head and shoulders ahead of the game in terms of arrogance/ destructiveness. What a pair!
I love my country. |
yes, yes we are but one of the reasons I want to stay here is because I know there are enough people that can enact a change. I've travelled majority of this land, walked in many different societal shoes, and there is a movement for change here.
Not all of us are Republicans - remember that and remember how close the last two elections were. Bush made it into office last round by the slimmest margin in popular vote in the history of our government. More and more people are voting thanks to his arrogance and more are becoming convinced day by day how bad our foreign policy, the war, and everything were misconcepted from the getgo.
I prefer optimism to being downtrodden anyday. :)
"-it-all - a brand new drug for taking care of all your ills. I don't want to do anything, move, talk, walk, eat, etc. - -it-all."
- Robin Williams |
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