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Current Hamas and Israel Issue. (pg. 3)
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| vano |
Here is a good article.
Abstract
In this paper, John J. Mearsheimer of the University of Chicago's Department of Political Science and Stephen M.Walt of Harvard University's Kennedy School of Government contend that the centerpiece of U.S. Middle East policy is its intimate relationship with Israel. The authors argue that although often justified as reflecting shared strategic interests or compelling moral imperatives, the U.S. commitment to Israel is due primarily to the activities of the “Israel Lobby." This paper goes on to describe the various activities that pro-Israel groups have undertaken in order to shift U.S. foreign policy in a pro-Israel direction.
http://ksgnotes1.harvard.edu/Resear...06_011_walt.pdf |
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| Alex |
The conflict is ridiculous.
I'd like to make (as unrealistic as it may seem) a comparisson here.
Lets say we were somehow invaded by a foreign power that had us in a choke hold with Economic and military might, would we not develop some sort of way to combat them regardless?
All is fair in war mengs, ALL. 3,000 people died in the world trade center attacks and pentagon attacks, tragic yes, but how many died in response, and how many died because of foreign interference prior to then?
We all are so sympathetic when brits and Americans get blown up but not when other innocents are killed in either direct attacks or "collatoral" damage. It has to do with our perception because of how we view the world (and whats our biggest window to the world... CNN, CBC, blah blah) and you cant tell me that they dont portray our lives to be more important.
Im guilty of it too, its beyond my control because of all the importance we put on ourselves over here, when over 100,000 people died in the Tusnami in south east asia, I didnt care anywhere near as much as I did when planes were flown into the world trade center, or when the tube was blown up in London.
I do not believe that when extremist rebel types blow up their own people, or other innocent people they are doing the right thing, however, when they blow up military and other FOREIGN GOVERNMENT involvement, I am sympathetic. This soldier that was captured, I cannot sympathize with the Israelis over this, he's a fighting man and he was caught by other fighting men, so goes the story of war people, cry and whine all you want but that's how war works, the Americans are congratulated when they capture and kill Iraqis, why isnt the media congratulatings the Palestinians for this victory? That's what it is isnt it on their part? But noooo they are terrorists, and murderers and what not, so meh, public opinion in western countries will always sway in favor of Israel, since they have a proper army, a proper economy and havent been forced to resort to desperation tactics like the Palestinians.
Force a man up against a wall, gradually start to crush his neck, and he'll kick you in the nuts. That's what all this boils down to, NONE of us know desperation, we've grown up richer beyond 80% of the world's wildest dreams, so we have no idea what it must be like to be put under such dire circumstances, so in my opinion, its no longer fair to critisize, cause to be honest, I have NO IDEA how hard it is for them. |
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| all-nite-freak |
just wait and see when the us goes after iran.
vietnam will look like a walk in the park;) |
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| Tag |
| quote: | Originally posted by Marcus007
How does Israel abuse Palastine on a daily basis? |
Well israel is on land that was never agreed upon...and they do some silly stuff with keeping palastinians from being able to get jobs in israel.
Either way it all comes down to religion.
Both are in the wrong imo. Israel is just as wrong as palastine....palastine with a terrorist government and the way they go about things is just stupid though. |
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| Marcus007 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Alex
This soldier that was captured, I cannot sympathize with the Israelis over this, he's a fighting man and he was caught by other fighting men, so goes the story of war people, cry and whine all you want but that's how war works, the Americans are congratulated when they capture and kill Iraqis, why isnt the media congratulatings the Palestinians for this victory? |
Alex... Palastine isn't at war with Israel. Up until that capture they were *breath in* TRYING *breath out* to co-exist even though militants kept shooting missles into the civilian ridden streets of Israel.
If it's going to be a war then have a war! It's pretty clear who would win. I just want this situation to resolve and the pathetic truth behind all this is that there is no RESOLUTION in sight. It's a vicious circle that will continue to overlap until SOMEONE wipes one of these nations off the face of the earth.
And we all know it who's going if anyone is going to go...
All media is biased. It's granted. I learnt this awhile ago and I'm sure you'll agree with me... TAKE IT ALL WITH A GRAIN OF SALT! Read but don't believe until you see it with your own eyes. Media and news agencies are nothing but informants with a jaded perception. Take the core information, research further, and make your own conclusions. This is a basic function that much of the world can't comprehend.
| quote: | | All is fair in war mengs, ALL. 3,000 people died in the world trade center attacks and pentagon attacks, tragic yes, but how many died in response, and how many died because of foreign interference prior to then? |
Did the U.S strike first? Was it the U.S that flew two planes into a Taliban hut somewhere in the middle of ing nowhere? NO! It was fkn AlQaeda that started this horrific war and any deaths from that point are directly to blame on that organization. I don't believe the US is blameless in this situation but we must remember who drew blood first.
| quote: | | That's what all this boils down to, NONE of us know desperation, we've grown up richer beyond 80% of the world's wildest dreams, so we have no idea what it must be like to be put under such dire circumstances, so in my opinion, its no longer fair to critisize, cause to be honest, I have NO IDEA how hard it is for them. |
I don't need to see my family die to understand the horrors of war... :o |
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| Tag |
Simple solution.
Israel moves back to the agreed upon line of '67.
Palastine then isnt crushed into a retarded small area and everything is more or less fair. |
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| Epicurus |
| quote: | Originally posted by all-nite-freak
Markess, check the history books.Israel is on land that was Palestinian before the UN decided to take it.I'm not saying Palestinians are right, but in many ways they are treated the same way jews were during WW2(no , not genocide, but being singled out and controlled).There will never be a solution to this conflict because both sides refuse to negotiate.If you lost your land you would fight too;)
My only beef with israel is that they are probably the most pig headed,non negociating country in the world when it comes to foreign policy.As much as people make it out to be Jew vs Muslim, it is a conflict about land not religion. |
| quote: | Originally posted by all-nite-freak
im willing to bet more palestinians are dying than israelis
my history sucks but i think it was in 1948 that israel was formed.
How long have the turks and greeks been fighting my friend.
Human nature is not to be PLUR
expecting a population to lay down like sheep and take it up the ass and stfu is silly. |
+1 for Jay. I'm impressed you dirty wop :p
| quote: | Originally posted by Alex
The conflict is ridiculous.
I'd like to make (as unrealistic as it may seem) a comparisson here.
Lets say we were somehow invaded by a foreign power that had us in a choke hold with Economic and military might, would we not develop some sort of way to combat them regardless?
All is fair in war mengs, ALL. 3,000 people died in the world trade center attacks and pentagon attacks, tragic yes, but how many died in response, and how many died because of foreign interference prior to then?
We all are so sympathetic when brits and Americans get blown up but not when other innocents are killed in either direct attacks or "collatoral" damage. It has to do with our perception because of how we view the world (and whats our biggest window to the world... CNN, CBC, blah blah) and you cant tell me that they dont portray our lives to be more important.
Im guilty of it too, its beyond my control because of all the importance we put on ourselves over here, when over 100,000 people died in the Tusnami in south east asia, I didnt care anywhere near as much as I did when planes were flown into the world trade center, or when the tube was blown up in London.
I do not believe that when extremist rebel types blow up their own people, or other innocent people they are doing the right thing, however, when they blow up military and other FOREIGN GOVERNMENT involvement, I am sympathetic. This soldier that was captured, I cannot sympathize with the Israelis over this, he's a fighting man and he was caught by other fighting men, so goes the story of war people, cry and whine all you want but that's how war works, the Americans are congratulated when they capture and kill Iraqis, why isnt the media congratulatings the Palestinians for this victory? That's what it is isnt it on their part? But noooo they are terrorists, and murderers and what not, so meh, public opinion in western countries will always sway in favor of Israel, since they have a proper army, a proper economy and havent been forced to resort to desperation tactics like the Palestinians.
Force a man up against a wall, gradually start to crush his neck, and he'll kick you in the nuts. That's what all this boils down to, NONE of us know desperation, we've grown up richer beyond 80% of the world's wildest dreams, so we have no idea what it must be like to be put under such dire circumstances, so in my opinion, its no longer fair to critisize, cause to be honest, I have NO IDEA how hard it is for them. |
+1 for Alex. Good stuff man.
As for my opinion Marcus, I've written enough papers and articles on this subject to publish a book, but my position is a complex one, and would take forever for me to sum up in a nutshell. I think you know where I stand, but I don't want to post anything on this messageboard simply because emotions risk running wild, causing people to get offended and say stuff they don't really mean. Since we know each other on this board in person, I'd rather discuss this in person instead of firing opinions across cyberspace. When I get into Montreal, we can all go have some shisha and discuss this civily. Meir, you're more than welcome to come, as we still haven't discussed any of this face to face. |
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| Marcus007 |
| Deal. I'll settle to that. |
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| Goashem |
i wanna make a few comments,
| quote: | | Israel is on land that was Palestinian before the UN decided to take it |
no it was not. palestinians were never in charge of palestine. the land was under british control.
| quote: | | My only beef with israel is that they are probably the most pig headed,non negociating country in the world when it comes to foreign policy.As much as people make it out to be Jew vs Muslim, it is a conflict about land not religion |
well israel has offered 97% of the land back to palestinians. however they chose to retain key religious areas which are important to the palestinians as well. so i do think religion plays a big part in the land conflict.
| quote: | | what sickens me is the fact that it's totally ok to kill palestinians by tons for "security" reasons |
the fact that UN constantly condems israeli actions proves that it is not ok to kill palestinians.
| quote: | | Lets say we were somehow invaded by a foreign power that had us in a choke hold with Economic and military might, would we not develop some sort of way to combat them regardless? |
ummm how about them natives? are they blowing themselves up? how about ghandi and his non violence protest?
killing innocent people cant be justified no matter what side youre on.
now as several people already mentioned both sides are wrong. the palestinians had a chance to get a country, but they were promised more by the arab world if theyd reject the offer and fight to eliminate israel. the palestinians who felt that they were cheated by the british, who gave them false promises and allowed the israelis to colonize palestine took their chances. after the arab forces were defeated the arab world betrayed the palestinians by not providing them any support. israel has given palestinians some of their land back but never gave them what they wanted, and continued to steal land under everyones noses, the palestinians respond with terrorism and israel uses it as an excuse to continue a very oppresive occupation full of humiliation. so you see both sides are equally greedy and brutal. and the ones i dont understand the most are the actual people of both countries. the majority of the israeli people arent religious they couldnt care less about the west bank, they want peace, they pay ridiculous taxes that go to waste on religious nuts, the building of illegal settlements and their future destructions and yet they dont elect a government who will end it all. and the palestinians want their children to live they want to live in peace and quiet from the israelis yet they support organizations whose actions only bring them more suffering. crazy people
:crazy: |
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| vano |
| quote: | Originally posted by Marcus007
militants kept shooting missles into the civilian ridden streets of Israel.
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While Israeli soldiers *peacefully* kept crashing people with bulldozers.
Pick your side...
It’s useless to point fingers: neither side will cease the blame. Look for the cause since it’s hidden. The effects are on display daily.
Btw, did you know that Jewish extremists of the 50's used to do same things what Palestinian extremists are doing now. One thing is clear, Jews were/are good teachers.
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Did the U.S strike first? Was it the U.S that flew two planes into a Taliban hut somewhere in the middle of ing nowhere? NO! It was fkn AlQaeda that started this horrific war and any deaths from that point are directly to blame on that organization.
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Do you think it is THAT simple and clear? Black and white? This is what Washington wants you to believe :nervous::eek::whip: |
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| all-nite-freak |
very true
who do you think funded bin laden when he was fighting the russians during the conflict in afganistan.;)
or saddam when the war was on with iran;) |
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| Marcus007 |
I know all about the contra and about the creation of the Taliban and so on and so forth. I'm not saying the U.S isn't to blame. The U.S is the Rome of our time and with every great civilization comes it's great demise. I believe that the fall of the U.S is ten to fiften years away.
The fact of the matter is that the U.S knew about the 9/11 attacks before hand just like FDR knew about Pearl Harbor. I won't get into details but I make no effort to show the U.S as "blameless". |
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