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Whole country goes forwards and California goes backwards... (pg. 10)
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| gehzumteufel |
| quote: | Originally posted by Moral Hazard
You know what I find incredibly funny about this attitude... that it's held up as being of paramount importance when in reality it is rarely referenced in the bible. Homosexuality is never actually mentioned (alluded to once) in the new testament; whereas, eradicating poverty appears nearly 2000 times in the four Gospels alone... yet the evangelicals hold to the "homosexuality is bad" position while doing very little on the social justice front. |
I really trust you on this, as you are the MOST knowledgeable about your own religion than most Christians, but this is from another thread.
| quote: | Originally posted by CaptKirk
So God speaks to Abraham and says, "Yo, Abe! I'm going burn this freakin place to the ground" (speaking of Sodom) and Abe says, "Woo there Big Guy! There's righteous people there too. ! My nephew Lot grazes his goats there."
So God sends a couple glowing angels down to warn Lot of the impending fate of his beloved land and that night every man in the city, young and old, surrounded Lot's house and yelled in, "Yo Lot! We seen a couple fresh-faced twinks at your place. Send them out so we can lay some pipe to em."
Lot, in return, walks out his front door and says, "Forget it! You can do my two daughters instead. They're virgins - never been touched!" The men replied, "Daughters! We don't want your stinkin daughters! We want some glowing man-ass!" and broke for Lot's door.
Just at this point, the two angels reached their hands out, pulled Lot back inside, struck the leather-clad, sandle-wearing homos blind so they couldn't find the door, and told Lot, "Get your , head for the hills, and don't look back."
Lot gathered his family and escaped just as the Lord lay fire to the city but of Lot's dumb ass wife looked back and was turned into a pillar of salt. (Genesis 19:1-26)
"If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them." (Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13)
"For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet." (Romans 1:26-27)
So yeah, I guess if you are a Christian, it is your duty to oppose same-sex marriage within your society. This is not the government trying to pass a law nor would I consider them right-wing religious facists (although the lines have been significantly blurred over the past 8 years). I would merely say that if you consider yourself a believer in the Bible, you must vote yes on Prop 8 and you must not look upon same-sex relationships with compassion and understanding as surely you will suffer the same fate as Lot's wife.
On the other hand, with their mother out of the way, those two crazy virgin daughters of Lot got his old ass drunk and became impregnated by him while they were holed up in that cave on the outskirts of the city. (Genesis 19:30-38
And how many of these "Good Christians" are divorced or in their second marriages? There is no such thing as divorce or a second marriage. Biblical law would dictate that this is adultery. So why isn't it therefore a Christian duty to outlaw divorce in this country - except in cases of fornication of course? (Matthew 19:1-12)
It's all too confusing! Shave Ass and Vote No on Prop 8 |
So can you validate or give me more insight? |
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| gehzumteufel |
| quote: | Originally posted by Moral Hazard
Yes, upon a more careful review I note you did include the status quo crowd. I still think the criticism is unfair.. you cannot expect people to simply let go of beliefs they have held their entire lives. Beliefs and values change over-time; in Canada the prevailing beliefs on this subject have already shifted; however, California isn't quite there yet... you'll get there. |
It isn't unfair. It may be a bit much of a sweeping generalization, at which point I will agree, but it is not an unfair classification in its most basic sense. |
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| XaNaX |
| quote: | Originally posted by Moral Hazard
Homosexuality is never actually mentioned (alluded to once) in the new testament; whereas, eradicating poverty appears nearly 2000 times in the four Gospels alone... yet the evangelicals hold to the "homosexuality is bad" position while doing very little on the social justice front. |
this is key, I know "christians" who think gay people are evil and should burn in hell and they always quote the OT. I always tell them that since they are "christian" they should probably spend a little more time reading on Jesus' word. I must have missed when he said "love your neighbor as yourself unless he is a fag then kill him"
| quote: | Originally posted by gehzumteufel
I really trust you on this, as you are the MOST knowledgeable about your own religion than most Christians, but this is from another thread.
So can you validate or give me more insight? |
notice that all the quotes are from the OT, nothing at all from the NT, just like Moral said. |
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| gehzumteufel |
| quote: | Originally posted by XaNaX
notice that all the quotes are from the OT, nothing at all from the NT, just like Moral said. |
NT or OT, both are part of the bible, and therefore, are seen as just cause. Not that I agree with it, but that is the case. |
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| stren |
| I'm so sorry for yourself and bas |
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| Moral Hazard |
| quote: | Originally posted by gehzumteufel
I really trust you on this, as you are the MOST knowledgeable about your own religion than most Christians, but this is from another thread.
So can you validate or give me more insight? |
Only the Romans passage is from the new testament, the others are from the old.
Starting with the old:
The Sodom story is misunderstood. Yes, the Bible states that homosexual activity was rampant in Sodom; however, it has been over-emphasized in the Christian teachings. If one looks at the Jewish teachings it is clear that the final straw to God is the attempted rape of two angels (as it is in the Christian teachings); however, the Jewish teachings cite God's wrath as being more due to the townspeople inhospitality exhibited in the attempted rape rather then the homosexual aspect. Additionally, Rabbinic texts expand on the story found in Genesis and explain that the "wickedness" in the Genesis story included economic crimes, organized starvation of the poor, violence and blasphemy. Anyone who believes that God destroyed Sodom simply due to homosexuality has missed some critical aspects of the story and is likely the same type of Christian who believes every word their minister tells them without question because they've never bothered to actually read the Bible let alone take the time and do the necessary research to understand it.
I cannot argue the Leviticus quote... that's in there; however, if one looks as the entirety of Leviticus one will find a number of ridiculous "laws" that pretty much all Christians ignore or have deemed invalid... like burning your sheets if a woman sleeps on them during her period. In truth, Leviticus is more likely rules made up by Moses and his inner circle then the word of god. They are inspired by God in that they were largely written based on interpretations of earlier stories; however, very few people believe that they are the actual word of god and are still applicable (and by very few I mean the Hasidic Jews and that's it). I would suggest to you that anyone who styles themselves a Christian and holds to this particular verse does so because it supports their prejudice rather then because it is theologically sound (as evidenced by the fact that they likely reject most of the "laws" in Leviticus).
Now the New...
The passage from Romans you note is the allusion to homosexuality I was referring to. The person who quoted it did so (intentionally I suspect) out of context. Paul's letters to various Christian communities were essentially his attempts to encourage those communities to continue to Jesus' ministry in their own communities (see Christianity is a faith one must live... it means nothing if you do not take action). It was believed in those times that people who had physical or mental illness were so afflicted as punishment for their sins. The letter lists the loss of the natural use of women and burning lust between men amongst the "afflictions" suffered along with mental defect rather then with the sins that resulted in these suffering, which he lists later (murder, envy, unrighteousness, disobedience to parents, etc). Perhaps the most important thing that the original poster omitted; however, is the first verse of the next chapter where Paul chastises those who would judge their fellow man for their perceived sins... "Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things." (Romans 2 verse 1). This is another good example where if you pick a single line from any of the books of the bible you can make it mean whatever you want... the original poster wanted to claim that St. Paul was saying homosexuality is a sin and should be condemned; however, what he's really saying is that no matter what someone is suffering and for what sins you believe they are suffering it a man should not stand in judgment/condemnation of his fellow man. In fact, he goes on to state that in place of condemnation we should be trying to help those we believe suffer from various afflictions.... not really the same thing as "god hates fags and so should we." |
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| Moral Hazard |
| quote: | Originally posted by XaNaX
notice that all the quotes are from the OT, nothing at all from the NT, just like Moral said. |
The Romans quote is NT. |
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| XaNaX |
I love radical religious freaks, they are fun to with.
religious nutjob: "God hates fags"
me: "did God create everything on the earth in his image or is evolution responsible for us?"
religious nutjob: "God created everything in his image, evolution never happened"
me: "so if God created everyone in his image and there is no evolution then that means gay people were also created by God in his image. Why would God create something in his image and then hate it?"
religious nutjob: head explodes |
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| Moral Hazard |
| quote: | Originally posted by gehzumteufel
NT or OT, both are part of the bible, and therefore, are seen as just cause. Not that I agree with it, but that is the case. |
No, no, no... if one is truly a Christian and understands their faith they also understand that loving god and their fellow man takes precedence above all else and any "law" that contradicts that is invalid. If you want theological support for this there is a story (sorry, I cannot remember the citation) in the Gospels where Jesus is asked by one of the pharacies which of God's laws is most important... rather then picking one of the laws of Leviticus (considered the law in those times) he states that the most important is to love god above everything else, then to love your neighbour as you do yourself... meaning that the love of god and the love of your fellow man is inseparable and any "law" that is not consistent with loving your neighbour is therefore not consistent with loving god and is an offense to god... therefore invalid. |
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| gehzumteufel |
| Craig, I really wish you were with me a couple weeks ago to put a friend in his place. I am not religious and therefore don't know the bible or it's teachings very well at all. Thank you for the explanation. :) It really does give me something to credit and show that these religious people are ignorant of their own religion. |
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| Moral Hazard |
| quote: | Originally posted by gehzumteufel
Craig, I really wish you were with me a couple weeks ago to put a friend in his place. I am not religious and therefore don't know the bible or it's teachings very well at all. Thank you for the explanation. :) It really does give me something to credit and show that these religious people are ignorant of their own religion. |
Never a problem.
You hit the nail on the head, BTW... these people who claim to be Christians and spew hatred or intolerance are simply ignorant of their own faith... Jesus was all about love and inclusiveness. Ultimately, from the Christian perspective homosexuality is not something that God intended and is not the preferred way for humans to live; however, homosexuals should be loved and accepted just as much as any other person. You don't show love for someone by calling them a fag, telling them they're not as worthy of love as you are, and that they will suffer eternal punishment in hell (also not something that anyone who understands Christianity would ever believe). |
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| MrJiveBoJingles |
| Well, the idea that for so many centuries the great majority of Christians who refused to tolerate homosexuality were simply ignorant of their own faith is pleasant, at least. |
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