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John 00 Fleming: Response to essential mix, state of trance today (pg. 7)
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| SYSTEM-J |
| quote: | Originally posted by djnitride
Your expectations of the average audience are totally out of whack.... :conf: Completely agree with J00F on this one. |
No they aren't. Again, there are plenty of popular DJs who mix up the genres in a set, whether they are crowd pleasers like 2 Many DJs and Fatboy Slim or more adventurous like Laurent Garnier or Martyn.
Like most people in the trance scene, your audience expectations are totally undemanding. I like J00F as a DJ and as a producer and I'll be happy to see this next tour because it sounds like what he needs, but you cannot complain that trance DJs lack variety and play it safe if you think progressive house and trance makes for a varied and eclectic mixture. |
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| FCB_Fanatic |
| quote: | Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
No they aren't. Again, there are plenty of popular DJs who mix up the genres in a set, whether they are crowd pleasers like 2 Many DJs and Fatboy Slim or more adventurous like Laurent Garnier or Martyn.
Like most people in the trance scene, your audience expectations are totally undemanding. I like J00F as a DJ and as a producer and I'll be happy to see this next tour because it sounds like what he needs, but you cannot complain that trance DJs lack variety and play it safe if you think progressive house and trance makes for a varied and eclectic mixture. |
taking 2 Many DJ's into the discussion destroys whole your argumentation; if this is what you expect from a dj than you are the one with undemanding expactations. Maybe Fatboy Slim or Laurent Garnier are better examples, but 2 Many DJ's suck big time. They can't mix and they play pre-programmed music |
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| SYSTEM-J |
| quote: | Originally posted by FCB_Fanatic
taking 2 Many DJ's into the discussion destroys whole your argumentation; if this is what you expect from a dj than you are the one with undemanding expactations. Maybe Fatboy Slim or Laurent Garnier are better examples, but 2 Many DJ's suck big time. They can't mix and they play pre-programmed music |
I didn't say anything about how good they are, did I? In fact, just read my live review of them: http://www.trancecritic.com/modules...iewtopic&t=1318
The point is that a crowd-pleasing and highly successful DJ doesn't have to stick to one genre. I chose 2 Many DJs as an example precisely because they are famous and because they play to uninformed/casual crowds. The argument seems to be that genre-hopping places some huge demand on the crowd and that only clued-up clubbers put up with it, and 2 Many DJs are perfect proof that this is nonsense. |
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| MrJiveBoJingles |
| quote: | Originally posted by Sand Leaper
This leads me to a bigger point for trance as a whole. It seems like nobody ever listens to anything else than trance. |
I wrote about this in the producer forum a while ago, calling it "musical incest." You get all these young producers whose "influences" run all the way from AvB to Sean Tyas. Gee, I wonder what someone like that will come up with.
:p |
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| corjay9 |
| quote: | Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
Fully agree with this. If anyone here thinks playing progressive house and about three types of trance is varied then they've no business talking about DJing. |
It's obvious J00F is a trance DJ, he likes and produces trance. How much more diverse can a 'trance' DJ be? It's hard to go from playing trance then jumping into techno. Trance and techno/house is night and day, besides the 4/4. It's much easier to play a diverse house set where you can flip through the subgenres, drop few techno tracks in there, some tribal.. DJs who do this effectively have a fantastic ear and excellent transitioning songs that make the set flow seamlessly. Not everyone's a Sasha or a Victor Calderone.
I know some of you guys will say, "Well J00F doesn't have to play trance." Well, he ing likes trance he's gonna play what he likes. Going from prog house and into the subgenres of trance makes his sets flow nicely and allows him to be diverse as he can.
I don't even like trance, but I loved his EM. |
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| Domesticated |
| quote: | Originally posted by Sand Leaper
If this is really the best you could come up with to show how diverse and versatile J00f is as a DJ, then you've all just proven my point.
When you're constantly putting yourself and your sets at the same end of the spectrum soundwise, you don't lend much credibility to the philosophy of playing a good tune no matter what people label it.
When was the last time you saw J00f do a special on old 70s funk records? When did J00f last start off his sets with some fresh techno records or a Kerri Chandler-tune? When did you hear him drop a deep jungle/drum n bass track just to throw people off and surprise them? Surely you're not trying to tell me that trance and progressive house are the only two genres he likes? Why do you all settle for so much less from a DJ known for playing trance as far as a varied selection goes? |
That's absolutely ridiculous. Should Quentin Tarantino suddendly start making Ben Stiller-esque comedies? Should Dan Brown suddenly start writing deep philosophy books?
Whatever your field, you have a recognisable style which people will follow you for. Joof plays trance, and people go to see him because they like that style of music. I would be ing pissed off if I went out for a night of thumping trance and got drum 'n' bass or funk instead. I like those genres, but I want some control over what I'm seeing, and I don't think an umbrella as wide as a genre is picky.
Now, you're talking specifically about John here because he's the one making the comments, but why don't we get every DJ in the world to start dropping old funk records and techno and trance and house and everything else? It would be ludicrous. The whole point of a club night is to have a mood or theme that gets built and expanded upon. A night will have no sense of continuity or a proper vibe if every DJ is going in his own direction.
Of course, I'm not against diversity in itself. As mentioned, someone like Laurent Garnier can mix it up to a great degree, and he's an excellent DJ for it. However, not everyone has that ability, or the inclination. Besides, people like Garnier rarely raise the tempo above about 130 BPM, where there is a broader spectrum of music. For someone like John, who likes 150BPM trance, dropping an old funk record is going to sound like , not just due to the change in tempo, but also due to the change in mood.
| quote: | Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
Fully agree with this. If anyone here thinks playing progressive house and about three types of trance is varied then they've no business talking about DJing. |
It's varied within the context of being a good DJ. I think these mash-up DJs are a crock of . If I want to hear Lady Gaga, Barry White, Justice and The Cure all in the one innings, I'll listen to the radio. When I see a DJ I want a coherent theme with a subtle flow that keeps a mood going. Dropping overly diverse records ruins this.
To return to Garnier, he is able to be diverse because he identifies similar themes across different genres, and manages to glue them all together using their similarities, rather than their differences. Mr. Mystery's classics set also did this: despite huge genre variation, there was a clear set of moods being cultivated which gave the set a sense of cohesion.
Sure, John could probably do this if he wanted, but as I said, playing 150BPM trance leaves you open mostly to other fast genres, which are mostly rubbish if we're truthful.
On a final note, if a DJ likes trance, what's the problem with playing trance? Yes, it is a DJ's job to educate their crowd musically and open them to new things, but there's limits as to how far that responsibility stretches. As much as we might bash them, if people actually like the fluffy bull trance that someone like Armin plays, they should be allowed to go and have a whole night of that. In the same vein, someone like me who likes deeper/harder trance like John plays should be allowed to see a whole night of that, or a Lady Gaga fan should be able to hear just that at a Gaga concert. |
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| Domesticated |
| quote: | Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
I didn't say anything about how good they are, did I? In fact, just read my live review of them: http://www.trancecritic.com/modules...iewtopic&t=1318
The point is that a crowd-pleasing and highly successful DJ doesn't have to stick to one genre. I chose 2 Many DJs as an example precisely because they are famous and because they play to uninformed/casual crowds. The argument seems to be that genre-hopping places some huge demand on the crowd and that only clued-up clubbers put up with it, and 2 Many DJs are perfect proof that this is nonsense. |
That argument is false, and I think you know it. 2 Many DJs have become popular by playing a diverse range of popular music. How do you think casual crowds would respond if they dropped Swedish hip-hop or schranz techno? Genre hopping is easy for anyone to digest, as long as the genres in question remain in the popular realm.
| quote: | Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
Of course they do. There are local DJs here who will go from hip-hop to electro house to dubstep to Radiohead to The Prodigy to disco and back again in a night. In fact, that kind of ultra-eclectic party DJ seems to have become almost the norm these days, and there are plenty of high-profile jocks who play like this too. |
Every local DJ here does that too. I once heard Jackson 5 - ABC alongside Freefall - Skydive. All those DJs have residencies at ty clubs packed full of 18 year olds wearing polo shirts and munching their first pills. Any 'serious' club s off so-called 'diverse' DJs like this from the start, and it's not because there's a problem with the way club nights operate, it's because those DJs are mostly rubbish. |
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| corjay9 |
Yeah, the local opening acts for the electro shows I used to go to would jump around genres like you said, go from pounding sawtooth electro into hip hop into dubstep, mash ups all over the place.. one dude went from playing a dubstep track into a mash up of a hip hop song with Deadmau5's 'Strobe'
I left the dance floor. Being really diverse can also be a horrible thing. Completely agree with Domesticated here. |
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| djnitride |
| Domesticated, the voice of reason. Completely agree man... |
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| Sand Leaper |
| quote: | Originally posted by Domesticated
That's absolutely ridiculous. Should Quentin Tarantino suddendly start making Ben Stiller-esque comedies?
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Quentin Tarantino has made plenty of other kinds of movies than, say, Pulp Fiction. Hell, he's even made a trilogy of splatter/b-movie flicks.
| quote: |
Whatever your field, you have a recognisable style which people will follow you for. Joof plays trance, and people go to see him because they like that style of music. I would be ing pissed off if I went out for a night of thumping trance and got drum 'n' bass or funk instead. I like those genres, but I want some control over what I'm seeing, and I don't think an umbrella as wide as a genre is picky.
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Yes, because he has focused heavily on trance throughout nearly his entire career, and you've come to expect trance from him and labeled him a "trance DJ" as a result.
| quote: |
Now, you're talking specifically about John here because he's the one making the comments, but why don't we get every DJ in the world to start dropping old funk records and techno and trance and house and everything else? It would be ludicrous. The whole point of a club night is to have a mood or theme that gets built and expanded upon. A night will have no sense of continuity or a proper vibe if every DJ is going in his own direction.
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A "mood" or "theme" does not automatically mean sticking to one and the same genre throughout. For instance, I go to Corsica Studios in London a lot, as it covers the darker and more experimental sides of dance music. Yet I still get to hear dubstep, techno, grime, drum n bass and UK Garage there, sometimes several of them in one night. And that's before you take into account the DJs' penchant for dropping the odd record now and then that really takes the audience by surprise in a good way.
| quote: |
Of course, I'm not against diversity in itself. As mentioned, someone like Laurent Garnier can mix it up to a great degree, and he's an excellent DJ for it. However, not everyone has that ability, or the inclination. Besides, people like Garnier rarely raise the tempo above about 130 BPM, where there is a broader spectrum of music. For someone like John, who likes 150BPM trance, dropping an old funk record is going to sound like , not just due to the change in tempo, but also due to the change in mood.
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I've already explained this point twice. Read my posts more thoroughly. |
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| Domesticated |
| quote: | Originally posted by Sand Leaper
Quentin Tarantino has made plenty of other kinds of movies than, say, Pulp Fiction. Hell, he's even made a trilogy of splatter/b-movie flicks. |
Yes, and as John has explained, he has played other genres in past. Like Tarantino, he's done it under the radar.
| quote: | Originally posted by Sand Leaper
Yes, because he has focused heavily on trance throughout nearly his entire career, and you've come to expect trance from him and labeled him a "trance DJ" as a result. |
So? Richie Hawtin has focussed on techno, LTJ Bukem on drum 'n' bass etc. Some other DJs have made their names by being diverse. Whatever the case, DJs have to have a repertoire that people can expect when they show up.
| quote: | Originally posted by Sand Leaper
A "mood" or "theme" does not automatically mean sticking to one and the same genre throughout. For instance, I go to Corsica Studios in London a lot, as it covers the darker and more experimental sides of dance music. Yet I still get to hear dubstep, techno, grime, drum n bass and UK Garage there, sometimes several of them in one night. And that's before you take into account the DJs penchant for dropping the odd record now and then that really takes the audience by surprise in a good way. |
No, of course not. I completely agree with you. That Corsica night appears to have a very solid theme going, in the grittier styles of music. However, though there are many genres being played, I doubt that it's one DJ playing them all.
| quote: | Originally posted by Sand Leaper
I've already explained this point twice. Read my posts more thoroughly. |
In that he can't drop funk because he's pidgeon-holed himself into trance? My point remains: there's nothing wrong with specialising. In fact, I think it's an important facet of the DJ scene. I stress here that people can also specialise in being diverse DJs. |
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| Sand Leaper |
| quote: | Originally posted by Domesticated
So? Richie Hawtin has focussed on techno, LTJ Bukem on drum 'n' bass etc. Some other DJs have made their names by being diverse. Whatever the case, DJs have to have a repertoire that people can expect when they show up.
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The problem is that DJs these days focus on this "repertoire" nearly exclusively, causing the crowd to expect nothing but this from them and frowning immediately simply because they didn't get to hear it, regardless of the music actually being played was good. I believe this is a negative trend that boxes DJs in and by default makes their sets far less interesting.
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No, of course not. I completely agree with you. That Corsica night appears to have a very solid theme going, in the grittier styles of music. However, though there are many genres being played, I doubt that it's one DJ playing them all.
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Kode9 says hello. Last time I saw him he played dubstep, funky and techno, and I know he's opened his sets with the odd reggae tunes in the past as well.
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In that he can't drop funk because he's pidgeon-holed himself into trance? My point remains: there's nothing wrong with specialising. In fact, I think it's an important facet of the DJ scene. I stress here that people can also specialise in being diverse DJs. |
I never said that, either. Read my posts again, as you're arguing a point I never claimed in the first place. |
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