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Depression and intelligence (pg. 4)
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| nefardec |
| quote: | Originally posted by Joss Weatherby
That's a very Utopian view of intelligence. |
check this out:
J. Kirhnamurti - Education and the Significance Oof Life
J. Krishnamurti - The Awakening of Intelligence
Here's an excerpt from the first:
| quote: | THE ignorant man is not the unlearned, but he who does not know himself, and the learned man is stupid when he relies on books, on knowledge and on authority to give him understanding. Understanding comes only through self-knowledge, which is awareness of one's total psychological process. Thus education, in the true sense, is the understanding of oneself, for it is within each one of us that the whole of existence is gathered.
What we now call education is a matter of accumulating information and knowledge from books, which anyone can do who can read. Such education offers a subtle form of escape from ourselves and, like all escapes, it inevitably creates increasing misery. Conflict and confusion result from our own wrong relationship with people, things and ideas, and until we understand that relationship and alter it, mere learning, the gathering of facts and the acquiring of various skills, can only lead us to engulfing chaos and destruction.
As society is now organized, we send our children to school to learn some technique by which they can eventually earn a livelihood. We want to make the child first and foremost a specialist, hoping thus to give him a secure economic position. But does the cultivation of a technique enable us to understand ourselves?
While it is obviously necessary to know how to read and write, and to learn engineering or some other profession, will technique give us the capacity to understand life? Surely, technique is secondary; and if technique is the only thing we are striving for, we are obviously denying what is by far the greater part of life.
Life is pain, joy, beauty, ugliness, love, and when we understand it as a whole, at every level, that understanding creates its own technique. But the contrary is not true: technique can never bring about creative understanding.
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also that last line "technique can never bring about creative understanding." relates a lot to my concept of deejaying :p |
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| woscar |
| I guess we are just different, I guess. Because I do value both types equally. However, I do agree with you on the "wisdom" part. I don't want to live to be the smartest fucker around, but the wisest. ;) |
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| Joss Weatherby |
Nef, your argument makes the assumption that intelligent people are never ignorant. Gaining intelligence is a journey and is built upon rectifying views that are incorrect or learning new views or ideas.
How intelligence can be depressing is that in the journey to become intelligent you realize things that in the past you felt were right or the way things should be are actually not as such. This can be a very sobering experience and often depressing. Depression doesnt come from the lack of knowledge but the contrast to what is real and known and what you had though was the case. Because you might have believed one thing one way doesn't mean you continue to believe it to be so, but the memory and influence on you can still last, especially on an emotional level.
Juxtaposition from the previously known to the currently known is what is depressing. |
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| nefardec |
| quote: | Originally posted by woscar
I guess we are just different, I guess. Because I do value both types equally. However, I do agree with you on the "wisdom" part. I don't want to live to be the smartest ****** around, but the wisest. ;) |
well let me ask you - when you're on your death bed, and let's say you studied chemistry - do you think what you are going to think about is the atomic weight of fermium? maybe the professor who taught you about fermium, but not the useless fact itself, or the skill to balance a chemical equation.
the skills and facts are useful only in the sense that they allow you to survive on a daily basis vis-a-vis a job. and having a job can open up new life experiences for you.
but the thing is - whether you have a job or not as a chemist, or whatever you think you are, you're always going to have life experiences, and when you're on the death bed, what ever life you've lived is going to be the only life you've had. |
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| nefardec |
| quote: | Originally posted by Joss Weatherby
Nef, your argument makes the assumption that intelligent people are never ignorant. Gaining intelligence is a journey and is built upon rectifying views that are incorrect or learning new views or ideas.
How intelligence can be depressing is that in the journey to become intelligent you realize things that in the past you felt were right or the way things should be are actually not as such. This can be a very sobering experience and often depressing. Depression doesnt come from the lack of knowledge but the contrast to what is real and known and what you had though was the case. Because you might have believed one thing one way doesn't mean you continue to believe it to be so, but the memory and influence on you can still last, especially on an emotional level.
Juxtaposition from the previously known to the currently known is what is depressing. |
No, I believe that 'smart' people can definitely be ignorant. My definition of 'intelligence' is the exact opposite of 'ignorance', that's the only lapse in communication we are having.
The only reason such sobering experiences would be depressing would be that you are overly attached to figments of imagination, hopes, dreams, expectations, etc. (which aren't real anyways!!) That's why I say acceptance of the present moment as the only moment is the key to not being depressed when life takes unexpected turns.
Obviously that's easier said than done, but in my experience, it really works. |
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| Joss Weatherby |
| quote: | Originally posted by nefardec
No, I believe that 'smart' people can definitely be ignorant. My definition of 'intelligence' is the exact opposite of 'ignorance', that's the only lapse in communication we are having.
The only reason such sobering experiences would be depressing would be that you are overly attached to figments of imagination, hopes, dreams, expectations, etc. (which aren't real anyways!!) That's why I say acceptance of the present moment as the only moment is the key to not being depressed when life takes unexpected turns.
Obviously that's easier said than done, but in my experience, it really works. |
Accepting only the present is a dangerous place to be. |
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| nefardec |
| quote: | Originally posted by Joss Weatherby
Accepting only the present is a dangerous place to be. |
really? why is that? maybe you should examine that claim more deeply. |
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| Joss Weatherby |
| quote: | Originally posted by nefardec
really? why is that? maybe you should examine that claim more deeply. |
Because its very short sighted, unless you didn't explain it fully enough?
Not regarding your own past or your own potential futures can lead to stagnation, at least in my opinion. |
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| woscar |
| quote: | Originally posted by nefardec
well let me ask you - when you're on your death bed, and let's say you studied chemistry - do you think what you are going to think about is the atomic weight of fermium? maybe the professor who taught you about fermium, but not the useless fact itself, or the skill to balance a chemical equation.
the skills and facts are useful only in the sense that they allow you to survive on a daily basis vis-a-vis a job. and having a job can open up new life experiences for you.
but the thing is - whether you have a job or not as a chemist, or whatever you think you are, you're always going to have life experiences, and when you're on the death bed, what ever life you've lived is going to be the only life you've had. |
That's a really good point. However, it's not really true; at least in my specific case.
You keep making the assumption that scientific knowledge (let's call it like that for the sake of differentiating it from the other one) adds nothing to your life, other than it gives you a job or another way of "surviving through life on a daily basis", which is simply not true. Let me give you an example:
I know that the nearest galaxy (Andromeda) is 2.5 million light years away. It is a distance that is far beyond what the human mind can even begin to really imagine. No matter how hard you try to work it around in your brain, it's a number (21,000,000,000,000,000,000 km) that is beyond what our limited minds can grasp. When talking about the universe with my friends, I always tell them that when they think they grasped the idea of how immense the universe is, they really don't.
I also understand Darwin's theory of evolution. I understand the huge number of things that had to happen and events that had to take place over the course of billions of years in order for me to be sitting in front of this computer and writing these lines to you.
What do I learn or add to my life from this? An extraordinary feeling of awe and perspective of where I really stand on the vastness of the universe. I get an overwhelming sensation of humbleness and that I am extremely fortunate to be alive. The thing with scientific knowledge (or any type of knowledge, for that matter) is that it is not enough to "know it", you have to know how to apply that knowledge in a way that is beneficial to yourself and to others. And THAT my friend, is what I call wisdom. ;) |
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| yukii |
| quote: | Originally posted by nefardec
pain/conflict arises from not accepting circumstances, desires, and expectations. understanding is total acceptance of the present moment. acceptance is neither pleasurable or painful, neither joyful, nor depressing.
you are confusing 'understanding the world' with 'having an opinion on the way world should be' or 'expecting the world to match your ideals'
ultimately 'the world' is a mental construct, at least the part of the world that matters to us on a daily basis - it's the product of our perceptions, fears, hopes, etc. ultimately your day to day interaction with 'the world' is completely dependent on your attitude. so understanding yourself becomes paramount to understanding 'the world'. |
There are people who just have a problem being able to understand or cope, even if their environment is more than 'satisfactory,' that's not what they see. It is embarrassing to say, it is almost selfish, one who has everything and could perceive their world to be great but they don't, not because they want to, but because it goes beyond themselves. People who have had this problem for years and have tried talking, writing, picking activities, traveling, to relieve themselves only to find they're back in the same spot is frustrating and at times do feel like giving up. I think it's more than just being able to understand yourself and understanding the world, that's just the tip of the iceberg. Maybe I'm wrong. |
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| GoSpeedGo! |
| quote: | Originally posted by Joss Weatherby
Because its very short sighted, unless you didn't explain it fully enough?
Not regarding your own past or your own potential futures can lead to stagnation, at least in my opinion. |
Embracing present moment, as I see it, doesn't mean not having plans for the future or giving up on goals. It is the understanding, that the present moment is the only thing that truly exists (compared to what is your vision of past and future), and that it is only in this moment when you can go and work towards your goals; when you can change something.
That is why daydreaming/mourning/being depressed is such a waste of time; it only feeds your ego, gives you unrealistic outlook on things, and most importantly prevents you from taking action. |
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| Lomeli |
| quote: | Originally posted by nefardec
That's why I say acceptance of the present moment as the only moment is the key to not being depressed when life takes unexpected turns.
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You are my favorite poster on TA, have I told you that? |
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