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possible upgrade from krk's to hs's (pg. 9)
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| DJ RANN |
| quote: | Originally posted by Looney4Clooney
Not talking about sub imaging in any way. I'm talking about room modes, and how moving the source will change them especially when using them in pairs on a off phase vector. |
Well of course it will change the modes as they are based on directional directional computations in a given room.
So the short answer is yes but you're kind of asking how long is a piece of string. What room? What dimensions? What materials? What placement? |
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| Looney4Clooney |
for which there are all rather simple calculations. Absorption doesn't really change much but lower peak values. And again, direction does not play into the equation at all unless it is a boundary effect which again they have pretty much nailed the science for a rectangular room.
in a rectangle room, you can easily find out where all these peaks and nulls will occur to a rather good estimate. Things like an open door will change them , but absorption is not really a concern. Unless you are talking about hz specific resonators which is kinda pointless as this is something you do prior.
And knowing all this, you can not just ballpark it but get pretty close in terms of your desired effect and then test it out.
For example. this would solve that 80db null with particular ease were it might be impossible without insane amounts of treatment and odd speaker placement. |
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| DJ RANN |
| quote: | Originally posted by Looney4Clooney
for which there are all rather simple calculations. Absorption doesn't really change much but lower peak values. And again, direction does not play into the equation at all unless it is a boundary effect which again they have pretty much nailed the science for a rectangular room.
in a rectangle room, you can easily find out where all these peaks and nulls will occur to a rather good estimate. Things like an open door will change them , but absorption is not really a concern. Unless you are talking about hz specific resonators which is kinda pointless as this is something you do prior.
And knowing all this, you can not just ballpark it but get pretty close in terms of your desired effect and then test it out.
For example. this would solve that 80db null with particular ease were it might be impossible without insane amounts of treatment and odd speaker placement. |
and what I'm saying is, in theory you;re right, but in practise it never quite works that way.
Martin Pilchner, of Pilchner Schoustal, was my acoustics teacher when I studied in Tonronto. he's arguably one of the greatest acoustic designers on the planet, always getting nominated for his projects.
He always said LFE placement is science, luck and a bit of messing about. The rest you can nail down to within millimeters, but bass is always a ****** as a number of things can get in the way of the ext science, like furniture placement and resonance of certain materials interacting (which you can basically never predict).
and this guy literally wrote the formula for room analysis. He made the first program commercially available for speaker placement.
I know you;re trying to make sense of it and in an ideal work where you can control everything from the building tolerances, construction techniques, material choices, placement of speakers & equipment, listening position, etc, you should be able to predict.
To a degree, you can, but as I said nearly every guy I've spoken to on the subject, no to mention my own installs, LFE placement always needs a bit of adjusting beyond your prediction, and then a little adjustment of the rest of the room. Most consider it naive to assume they'll get it right from modal. |
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| Looney4Clooney |
it is new territory for me. The book i'm going thru is recent enough but it is based on studies that are always somewhat limited in scope even if they try to insert a form of realism. What struck me about this particular concept is the idea of rectangular rooms which seem to be both theoretical and practical correlates.
Do you know of any current research that is has been vetted by guys in the actual field ( practical ) I'm assuming this guy knows all the math but applies it in reality ?
This is just pass time stuff i do in my free time which is about 1 hour of reading a day while i jazzer size and eat.
I shouldn't say complete new territory. While attending university, all my electives were physics related and I took all the music perception technology courses. |
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| Energy3 |
| cheers for the read here lads:) |
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| trancintaiwan |
This thread went in so many directions I got a bit confused.
So are some of you suggesting that for the mid-range price, its better to get something like the HS80's than to spend a little more and get cheaper Focals (CMS40 or CMS50) or DynAudio (BM5A or BM6A)? |
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| Juan Paulino |
| if my studio ever got stolen i'd go for the 2 way focal range |
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| clay |
| quote: | Originally posted by Juan Paulino
if my studio ever got stolen i'd go for the 2 way focal range |
somehow i think you hope this will happen lol. all that money down the drain :D |
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| jayxthekoolest |
| quote: | Originally posted by Juan Paulino
if my studio ever got stolen i'd go for the 2 way focal range |
where do you live again? |
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| Juan Paulino |
| quote: | Originally posted by jayxthekoolest
where do you live again? |
miami |
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| DJ RANN |
| quote: | Originally posted by Looney4Clooney
it is new territory for me. The book i'm going thru is recent enough but it is based on studies that are always somewhat limited in scope even if they try to insert a form of realism. What struck me about this particular concept is the idea of rectangular rooms which seem to be both theoretical and practical correlates.
Do you know of any current research that is has been vetted by guys in the actual field ( practical ) I'm assuming this guy knows all the math but applies it in reality ?
This is just pass time stuff i do in my free time which is about 1 hour of reading a day while i jazzer size and eat.
I shouldn't say complete new territory. While attending university, all my electives were physics related and I took all the music perception technology courses. |
Back on topic, the short answer is no...because....wait for it.....you should be using one sub with a stereo setup, let alone trying two.
That's why you won't really find any published information on it. You will find some papers relating to home and commercial theater design, along with papers on 5.1, 7.1, 12.1 speaker placement design but what you;re looking for is incredible niche.
The only papers that most of the guys in the industry read are the AES publications (which are excellent) but it's really a case of practical knowledge, which for the exact question you're asking, I doubt you'll ever find published information.
| quote: | Originally posted by TITW
This thread went in so many directions I got a bit confused.
So are some of you suggesting that for the mid-range price, its better to get something like the HS80's than to spend a little more and get cheaper Focals (CMS40 or CMS50) or DynAudio (BM5A or BM6A)?
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To clarify, here's my take: The budget offerings currently available on the market have become so good in relative terms, that many mid priced speakers don't offer better performance that would be worth the extra $500-1000 over these budget offerings at far less money.
However, when you spend serious money (i.e. $2k) on monitors) that's when the scale tips and you get a real increase in performance.
There are a couple of exceptions of course (Dynaudio BM5's being one) but even then I still think you're better off either just saving money and buying some good budget monitors, or going the whole hog and buying professional grade equipment. The middle ground, especially now, is under a lot of market pressure and not really a wise investment IMO. |
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| Looney4Clooney |
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ RANN
Back on topic, the short answer is no...because....wait for it.....you should be using one sub with a stereo setup, let alone trying two.
That's why you won't really find any published information on it. You will find some papers relating to home and commercial theater design, along with papers on 5.1, 7.1, 12.1 speaker placement design but what you;re looking for is incredible niche.
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but there are studies applying the science. Katz uses 2. Many people use more than 1 in a mixing/mastering environment. It is more effective than bass traps. It just takes more work to setup but it isn't rocket science. Especially when the room is a rectangle. It is rather easy.
I still don't think you get the underlying concept to which i am talking about. IT is a practice advocated for small rectangle rooms. Rooms that cannot be controlled with bass traps. |
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