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israel & lebanon (pg. 2)
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| colibri |
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| Miss Bliss |
| colibri, your PM box is full, and I study European Politics & Journalism :) |
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| trancinchink |
i agree with alisa..
politics make me depressed :( |
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| ProggieGuy |
| quote: | Originally posted by Miss Bliss
I think what he's saying is that Hezbollah attacks Israel because it occupied Lebanon, whereas the reason for the occupation was because of strikes on Israel that Israel needed to thwart... So it's true that superficially, this is about sovereignty and the right to be independent and protect your country... religion becomes involved in a historical sense, about the Holy Land and centuries-old conflict. But if you think it hasn't extended beyond religion by now, you are mistaken... |
I agree that it has extended beyond religion but the root of it remains the same. Its really quite tragic, but one has to imagine the culture that these people have grown up with...this refers specifically to those raised in the uneducated poor ghettos rather than the those who have access to information about other cultures through education, rich family, etc. Its very easy to look at the situation over there and pass judgement from a distance (not saying anyone here has done such a thing) but its hard to understand people who have grown up in such a way that they feel desperate to fight for what little they have because that is all they know. |
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| InterMilan31 |
| quote: | Originally posted by ProggieGuy
I agree that it has extended beyond religion but the root of it remains the same. Its really quite tragic, but one has to imagine the culture that these people have grown up with...this refers specifically to those raised in the uneducated poor ghettos rather than the those who have access to information about other cultures through education, rich family, etc. Its very easy to look at the situation over there and pass judgement from a distance (not saying anyone here has done such a thing) but its hard to understand people who have grown up in such a way that they feel desperate to fight for what little they have because that is all they know. |
Guessing your refering to Lebanon.....but think of Israel living in a country where everyone from Morocco to Pakistan hates you and at any given day you can be blown to bits there are stats(that i cant be bothered looking for) that are astonishing on "1 in so many" will die from an act of terrorism. These people are threatned every day more than we will ever be. They have a right to defend themselves when people sneak into their country take their soldiers and send missles into their cities. |
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| Miss Bliss |
| quote: | Originally posted by ProggieGuy
I agree that it has extended beyond religion but the root of it remains the same. Its really quite tragic, but one has to imagine the culture that these people have grown up with...this refers specifically to those raised in the uneducated poor ghettos rather than the those who have access to information about other cultures through education, rich family, etc. Its very easy to look at the situation over there and pass judgement from a distance (not saying anyone here has done such a thing) but its hard to understand people who have grown up in such a way that they feel desperate to fight for what little they have because that is all they know. |
I love reading the New York Times, Int'l Herald Tribune, Time, US News, Le Monde, etc. humanitarian-type specials from journalists brave enough to venture in and report on what's really happening in the average neighborhood in crisis... I work a lot with human rights at my internship with an org called UNAUSA too, so I am very sensitive to it believe me. It makes me angry at inequality when some of the things an average citizen says are apalling but it's because of what he's lost...
And that's why the mistakes the officials make, hurting civilians, bombing indiscriminately and overusing force are huge, huge, huge mistakes that ferment trouble for the future - cause when the children grow up...... |
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| Konijn |
| quote: | Originally posted by InterMilan31
These people are threatned every day more than we will ever be. |
that's the risk you run when occupy someone else's land...
all conversations regarding the israeli conflict must have as their starting point the fact that palestinians are an occupied people. ignoring this salient fact gives rise to a number of untenable positions rooted in messianic pretense and mythology. if you believe that god promised israel the land they're occupying, then any further discussions are moot.
israel and the u.s. hold all the cards, yet time and again they choose either force or meretricious peace offers. culturally, palestinians are secular people for whom radicalism has become the only avenue of resistance. bad policy and a severe misunderstanding of the people a stronger nation is dealing with has always caused radicalization where there had been little to none (see vietnam, iran, and iraq, to name but a few...)
whatever their rhetorical flourishes, the majority of arab countries realize that israel isn't going anywhere. in fact, the arab league has offered unilateral recognition of israel, peace agreements, and all the other trappings of normal diplomacy in exchange for israel withdrawing to the pre-1967 borders and allowing for the creation of a contiguous palestinian state.
israel of course has never agreed to this, instead offering chunks of land bisected by israeli highways that would render any palestinian state a bantustan of little villages (this was the vaunted 90% land offer made to arafat) -- and let's not forget the nifty wall being built...
in gaza, israel made a showy withdrawal, yet continued to control gaza's airspace, borders, and ports. with the help of the u.s., it also froze the PA's and Hamas's assetts, so the fledgling government couldn't pay its civil servants or manage its bureaucratic apparratus. and then they wonder why it failed...
what the u.s. should do is get realistic.
tell israel to withdraw back to '67 borders and give the palestinians a real country already, under threat of severe financial and military disinvestment. the same financial penalties would also go into effect for every settlement israel builds and every u.n. resolution it violates.
as the same time it does this, the u.s. should tell palestinians and their sponsors, that it will increase israel's aid for every suicide bombing or attack on israel. it would also demand that all of israel's neighbors recognize it diplomatically and renounce violence.
money talks. |
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| ProggieGuy |
| quote: | Originally posted by Miss Bliss
And that's why the mistakes the officials make, hurting civilians, bombing indiscriminately and overusing force are huge, huge, huge mistakes that ferment trouble for the future - cause when the children grow up...... |
....it turns into a never ending cycle. |
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| chi6me8ra |
| quote: | Originally posted by InterMilan31
Guessing your refering to Lebanon.....but think of Israel living in a country where everyone from Morocco to Pakistan hates you and at any given day you can be blown to bits there are stats(that i cant be bothered looking for) that are astonishing on "1 in so many" will die from an act of terrorism. These people are threatned every day more than we will ever be. They have a right to defend themselves when people sneak into their country take their soldiers and send missles into their cities. |
Israelis are not the only ones threatened, don't you think some of the Lebanese view Israel's attacks as acts of terrorism? One of my best friends is a Lebanese Christian and her grandma went on vacation to Lebanon and might not be able to leave before her next chemo treatment in the US. Lebanon is not an overwhelming Muslim state and there are particular populations (some of which might be Muslim) that do not support Hezbollah and those are the ones suffering in this entire struggle.
Disclaimer: I'm not calling the Israeli army terrorist and completely agree that the country has the right to defend themselves but since the entire situation is so messed up there is a lot of gray |
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| InterMilan31 |
| quote: | Originally posted by chi6me8ra
Israelis are not the only ones threatened, don't you think some of the Lebanese view Israel's attacks as acts of terrorism? One of my best friends is a Lebanese Christian and her grandma went on vacation to Lebanon and might not be able to leave before her next chemo treatment in the US. Lebanon is not an overwhelming Muslim state and there are particular populations (some of which might be Muslim) that do not support Hezbollah and those are the ones suffering in this entire struggle.
Disclaimer: I'm not calling the Israeli army terrorist and completely agree that the country has the right to defend themselves but since the entire situation is so messed up there is a lot of gray |
Well Lebanon is to blame for allowing Hezbollah to occupy most of the south of Lebanon is it not? To me they brought this on to themselves. One of the reasons why the Beruit airport being hit is because of the incoming of artilary and moneys for Hezbollah. Lebanon knew what Hezbollah's goals where they are by no means innocent. Also I think this is a bit of a dead argument since that in war many innocent people die which Im not condoning that is just what happens blame the government and in this case Hezbollah. Also Hezbollah like many terrorist groups sets up shop in apartment buildings. For what I only can think as "incognito" and when attacked looks bad on the others. |
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| chi6me8ra |
| quote: | Originally posted by InterMilan31
Well Lebanon is to blame for allowing Hezbollah to occupy most of the south of Lebanon is it not? To me they brought this on to themselves. One of the reasons why the Beruit airport being hit is because of the incoming of artilary and moneys for Hezbollah. Lebanon knew what Hezbollah's goals where they are by no means innocent. Also I think this is a bit of a dead argument since that in war many innocent people die which Im not condoning that is just what happens blame the government and in this case Hezbollah. Also Hezbollah like many terrorist groups sets up shop in apartment buildings. For what I only can think as "incognito" and when attacked looks bad on the others. |
I agree that Lebanon allowed Hezbollah control parts of the country, but it looks like a proxy war/conflict (whatever you want to call it) being fought in Lebanon and both sides don't merely look bad.
Also, the US government has helped many a terrorist so we aren't that much better. |
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| InterMilan31 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Konijn
that's the risk you run when occupy someone else's land...
all conversations regarding the israeli conflict must have as their starting point the fact that palestinians are an occupied people. ignoring this salient fact gives rise to a number of untenable positions rooted in messianic pretense and mythology. if you believe that god promised israel the land they're occupying, then any further discussions are moot.
israel and the u.s. hold all the cards, yet time and again they choose either force or meretricious peace offers. culturally, palestinians are secular people for whom radicalism has become the only avenue of resistance. bad policy and a severe misunderstanding of the people a stronger nation is dealing with has always caused radicalization where there had been little to none (see vietnam, iran, and iraq, to name but a few...)
whatever their rhetorical flourishes, the majority of arab countries realize that israel isn't going anywhere. in fact, the arab league has offered unilateral recognition of israel, peace agreements, and all the other trappings of normal diplomacy in exchange for israel withdrawing to the pre-1967 borders and allowing for the creation of a contiguous palestinian state.
israel of course has never agreed to this, instead offering chunks of land bisected by israeli highways that would render any palestinian state a bantustan of little villages (this was the vaunted 90% land offer made to arafat) -- and let's not forget the nifty wall being built...
in gaza, israel made a showy withdrawal, yet continued to control gaza's airspace, borders, and ports. with the help of the u.s., it also froze the PA's and Hamas's assetts, so the fledgling government couldn't pay its civil servants or manage its bureaucratic apparratus. and then they wonder why it failed...
what the u.s. should do is get realistic.
tell israel to withdraw back to '67 borders and give the palestinians a real country already, under threat of severe financial and military disinvestment. the same financial penalties would also go into effect for every settlement israel builds and every u.n. resolution it violates.
as the same time it does this, the u.s. should tell palestinians and their sponsors, that it will increase israel's aid for every suicide bombing or attack on israel. it would also demand that all of israel's neighbors recognize it diplomatically and renounce violence.
money talks. |
I really dont agree with this. Im in no way pro-palestine. as you say they result to radical acts to get their voice heard but really when you bomb a bus continously do you think you will get someones ear or just make them even madder.
The whole relgion thing is just a complete :wtf: issue to me since im a Atheist but its very important to these people. This territory has been fought over for years and years nothing will change.
Also your solution is a bit wishy washy. You really think Syria/Palestine are going to stick with the renouncing of violence and recognize it diplomatically. Never has happend throughout history and will not start now. Maybe if it did happen the same situation that happend in Lebanon (after Israeli withdraw Lebanon took back promises lead us here) |
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