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Timbaland ripping off trance? (pg. 11)
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| Jake Benson |
| quote: | Originally posted by Mr.Mystery
Yeah, not scraping the bottom of the barrel or anything there. Good job. |
That's what people in Finland do? omg lolololol you guys are crazy! |
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| Mr.Mystery |
| quote: | Originally posted by Jake Benson
That's what people in Finland do? omg lolololol you guys are crazy! |
...right. |
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| Jake Benson |
| quote: | Originally posted by Mr.Mystery
...right. |
omg sarcasm. girl you are sassy too! |
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| SYSTEM-J |
| quote: | Originally posted by Jake Benson
Don't make me quote all the ad hominems, people telling me "i'm wrong" or that I'm entirely incorrect, rather than understanding my point of view. |
If people don't agree with you, they'll tell you that. Telling them to "suck a tit" in response means you deserve everything you get.
| quote: | | Can you go into detail? |
I repeated the same sentence to draw attention towards it, but put emphasis on different parts of the sentence each time. In this case, it's to indicate a lack of belief in what I'm hearing. You'll find the technique used a lot in literature in this kind of way:
"How much is in the case?"
"Fifty million dollars."
"Fifty million dollars?"
"Yes."
"Fifty million dollars?"
"Yes."
"Fifty million dollars?"
"Yes."
"Fifty million dollars?"
"Yes!"
| quote: | | Ahhh see this is where you have to pay close attention. I said on page 8 "the kick, clap, IN COMBINATION WITH that staccato/arpeggio/decay/pattern whatever you call it synth". The "IN COMBINATION" conjunction makes the clause only true if includes both unions. So the kick and the clap alone are not my claim. No need to argue that anymore. |
I'm aware of what you've said. Even IN COMBINATION with each other, both musical elements add up to jack .
| quote: | Yes of course they will accept it. But that doesn't mean they are hypocritical. It means that whatever you do with a ty trance if you slap a namebrand on it (even if it's a genre that isn't trance) it gains popularity. That's the irony of popular artists/producers. They can do whatever they want and it's more often than not "cool" in comparison to some unknown artist that does the same thing. Ex: If "Sexy Back" was not by Justin Timberlake but by a new artist, it would not be nearly as popular as it was.
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That's still not ironic. Bigger names with more marketing force will have their music heard by more people. So there's nothing ironic about their music being more popular. It would be ironic if an unknown act signed to an indie label did something after Timbaland and got more recognition for it. What you're describing is exactly what you expect to happen in the circumstances. |
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| Jake Benson |
| quote: | Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
If people don't agree with you, they'll tell you that. Telling them to "suck a tit" in response means you deserve everything you get. |
Wrong. I told the person to suck a tit because they said I had a shallow view on music (go reread page 2). That's not disagreeing with me. That's degrading my point of view. So I have the freedom to flame their ass for being a tit-sucker. Now do you want me to flame you for telling me I deserve to get flamed when I got flamed in the first place?
| quote: | I repeated the same sentence to draw attention towards it, but put emphasis on different parts of the sentence each time. In this case, it's to indicate a lack of belief in what I'm hearing. You'll find the technique used a lot in literature in this kind of way:
"How much is in the case?"
"Fifty million dollars."
"Fifty million dollars?"
"Yes."
"Fifty million dollars?"
"Yes."
"Fifty million dollars?"
"Yes."
"Fifty million dollars?"
"Yes!" |
Dear System-J. You're pretty, and thanks for elaborating. I didn't see the italics.
| quote: | | I'm aware of what you've said. Even IN COMBINATION with each other, both musical elements add up to jack . |
You do realize that your statement is equaly valid as mine don't you?
| quote: | | That's still not ironic. Bigger names with more marketing force will have their music heard by more people. So there's nothing ironic about their music being more popular. It would be ironic if an unknown act signed to an indie label did something after Timbaland and got more recognition for it. What you're describing is exactly what you expect to happen in the circumstances. |
It's ironic that trance can't sell but a brandname can sell it. And there are no trance brandnames in the US nearly as big as Timbaland. |
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| Ishkur |
| quote: | Originally posted by Jake Benson
True, and then according to your logic, you are therefore wrong.
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Yeah, but at least I back up my statements with empirical evidence.
| quote: | Originally posted by Jake Benson
The trance elements are the kick, clap, IN COMBINATION WITH that staccato/arpeggio/decay/pattern whatever you call it synth where the pattern repeats every kick and the melody repeats every 8 kicks.
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That's not trance, and that's not arpeggio. Classically speaking, an arpeggio is when you play the individual notes that make up a chord in rapid succession instead of the chord itself. This was usually three notes. In electronic music's case, arpeggiation was how early synths got around the limitations of having no polyphony. With sequencing, they looped the arpeggiated chords, creating a sort of galloping effect.
IT SOUNDS LIKE THIS
It has its origins in disco, hi-nrg, ebm and electro music in the late 70s, not trance.
It does not sound "chopped up" or "cut up", it does not sound stuttering and it has absolutely nothing to do with the volume to have it phase in and out quickly. It is simply a rapid sequence of looping notes--usually no more than three--used as a rhythm primer for a track. It is hardly melodious, and is rarely used as the lead. It is great to dance to, though.
Moving on, whatever technique is used in the effect in the track (multi-tap delay on the Salt n Pepa sample would probably have the easiest proximity to a perfect result, which, btw, is a saw wave, but not a supersaw-and no, that's not trance either) actually harkens closer to 80s electro music and oldskool techno than trance.
And, seriously, apply Occam's Razer here: Timbaland, a black man, who most certainly got his main influences growing up listening to black electronic music of the 80s and 90s....is NOT going to suddenly decide to use white music from 6 years ago for which he has shown no affinity towards.
(and if you refer to the chiptune controversy, well its for that fact that he would take from a chiptune producer because it has that aunthentic retro feel.....he has no love for any modern music much less modern trance, and yes, 6 years ago IS modern, stop calling it old trance)
| quote: | Originally posted by Jake Benson
True, but I figured it's an obvious comparison.
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Never assume anything is self-evident.
| quote: | Originally posted by Jake Benson
I already did. I'm not comparing it to a specific trance track, just a cliche element of an old trance track.
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No you didn't, and this therein is the meat of the matter: If it's such a ing cliche, find me one trance track where this occurs.
| quote: | Originally posted by Jake Benson
You might not know what I'm talking about since you probably weren't a trance whore like I was from 96 to 02.
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No, I was only a trance whore from 94-07.
| quote: | Originally posted by Jake Benson
There's probably a better word to describe what I'm talking about. This is all semantics again. What I'm trying to describe is in the "tell me the trance element" response above in this post.
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Which, as I've proven, is hardly the domain of trance.
| quote: | Originally posted by Jake Benson
As for supersaw, whatever saw it is, it's definitely found in trance music. The name of it is not the point.
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The supersaw is most definitely a phenomenal technique championed by dutch trance, but it has its roots in ambient, but there's a problem here: There is no supersaw in Timbaland's track.
Any synth can produce a saw chord. That's not supersaw. Supersaw is a specific technique using two saw chords overlaid, one detuned, and ran through appropriate effects processors (lots of attack and sustain, tinker with the filters and envelopes at your leisure) to produce a mammoth, epic, phil spectre-like wall of sound. It became really EASY to setup with the Roland JP-8080 analogue modelling synthesiser, which was released in 97 and which, not coincidentally, Ferry Corsten popularized a year later with Albion - Air, refined with System F - Out of the Blue and everyone in the trance community exploited for five years afterward, culminating with Rank One - Airwave in 2001.
Supersaws are loud, boisterous, bombastic, and virtually unignorable in any given track, which is why they are used for the lead.
There is a supersaw in Out of the Blue. There is no Supersaw in Timbaland's track.
(btw: Out of the Blue is an excellent showcase of applying multi-tap delay to a supersaw)
| quote: | Originally posted by Jake Benson
And yes these two synths aren't the same, but if you reduce the cutoff on this synth it'll sound much more like the one used in Timbaland's song.
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Yeah, and if the Queen had nuts she'd be king.
| quote: | Originally posted by Jake Benson
hahahah, you're right. My bad. =( No hoover.
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The hoover is the property of the Juno Alpha series of synthesizers, but since you already concede this point and pretty much the entire argument, I won't go into a history of that particular sound.
Use Wikipedia next time, not me.
| quote: | Originally posted by Jake Benson
So if you are claiming "what are you talking about?" but in a previous post you are saying "hip-hop can take any elements from anywhere" are you acknolwedging my point that the song has trance/euro-trash/dance-pop-like elements but just picking on me for using the wrong words?
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No, I'm saying hip hop can take any elements it wants, but it most certainly did not take anything from trance for this song.
I hear the track clear as day. It has its roots in 80s electro, nothing more.
| quote: | Originally posted by Jake Benson
Jeez can't I make fun of something without being forced to turn it into an essay? |
It's because you're not making fun, you're just whining. |
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| SYSTEM-J |
| quote: | Originally posted by Jake Benson
Wrong. I told the person to suck a tit because they said I had a shallow view on music (go reread page 2). That's not disagreeing with me. That's degrading my point of view. So I have the freedom to flame their ass for being a tit-sucker. Now do you want me to flame you for telling me I deserve to get flamed when I got flamed in the first place? |
So instead of rising above such things, you decided to lower the bar?
| quote: | | You do realize that your statement is equaly valid as mine don't you? |
No. I've pointed out how radically different the track is from any trance. If it bears only a marginal similarity, your point is moot.
| quote: | | It's ironic that trance can't sell but a brandname can sell it. And there are no trance brandnames in the US nearly as big as Timbaland. |
No it isn't. Do you even know what irony is? |
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| Jake Benson |
| quote: | Originally posted by Ishkur
It's because you're not making fun, you're just whining. |
No i'm making fun of it. You just took the fun out of everything.
| quote: | No, I'm saying hip hop can take any elements it wants, but it most certainly did not take anything from trance for this song.
I hear the track clear as day. It has its roots in 80s electro, nothing more. |
Wrong. It's a hip-hop-trance hybrid nightmare. ;)
| quote: | | ...The first two-thirds of the album are front-loaded with the kind of futuristic club beats his rep rests on, and some of them-- the berserk Bootsy-meets-Thomas Dolby-by-way-of-Basement Jaxx house-funk of "Release" and the "The Way I Are", which sounds like "Push It" gone trance-- are straight-up jaw-droppers... |
SOURCE
| quote: | | ...I'm a fan of “The Way I Are;” with its trance-y keyboard line, it's clearly a musical sequel to “My Love."... |
SOURCE
| quote: | | ...A slim number of tracks off this album really show Timbaland’s virtuosity and ingenious creativity. “Way I Are,” another club track infusing house and trance together,... |
SOURCE |
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| HaeD |
| when sexyback came out i tought oooo thats kinda 303 ish but it's in no way near trance |
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| Jake Benson |
| quote: | Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
So instead of rising above such things, you decided to lower the bar? |
Sometimes games are fun.
| quote: | | No. I've pointed out how radically different the track is from any trance. If it bears only a marginal similarity, your point is moot. |
But at least I have a point, and some other people seem to say the same in reviews and blogs. So I am not alone in my illusion.
| quote: | | No it isn't. Do you even know what irony is? |
Yes. Do you have ass-floss? |
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| Jake Benson |
Ish, I concede to you for the following reasons:
1. I started this post light-hearted and light-headed with empty jargon not really caring about validity and content. To me the thread was as much of a joke as the song was
2. I'm not passionate enough or convinced enough in this specific argument to keep supporting my opinion with evidence
3. You've done a great job at explaining your side, and while it doesn't convince me that there isn't trance elements in Timbalands songs (especially after reading reviews that says there is, and having my friends agree with me...and yes it's probably just semantics), you've convinced me to shut up in this thread (I'd rather argue with you on a subject where I'm actually stating something valid and care about what I say rather than throwing around jokes and getting flamed for it) |
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| Ishkur |
Jake, I wouldn't trust anything music writers say, most especially the pretentious sellouts at Rich Dork Media.
They love to bandy buzzwords around like they know what their talking about in some inane mad libs exercise. Helps the writing of the articles on music they don't give a about flow much easier. Remember, these are the idiots who gave us "metrosexual" and "electronica" and called 2Unlimited and all eurodance "Techno" back in the early 90s, and you're going to rely on them as the definitive source on what they think trance sounds like?
They probably couldn't even name a trance song (not by DJ Sammy) if you asked them. |
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