Originally posted by Halcyon+On+On
Roads and education aren't rights either. The almighty constitution makes no mention of them, therefore all schools are hereby closed and roads are to be demolished immediately. Unless a corporation would like to come along to administer exorbitant fees to use these facilities or byways, thereby confirming our admittedly dated notions of economic freedom and social congruency, to even speak of them is un-American and I shall threaten you with opinion articles until you back down on your insistence!
Yes. You guys can buy SUVs to open up new paths, and who the hell needs "education" anyway? Your father can teach you all you need to know.
Lilith
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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
Whether universal healthcare is a “right” or not is completely irrelevant. Its whether it makes good policy.
People don't want to look at the figures of economic depression due to the workforce being unable to actually work though :)
They're off on some wallbat crusade that its all 'Personal' and that they'll be implanted with Lira TM brain chips, the reds will tear down society and steal all their rights to arm bears or something...
Here's the hint guys.
Its not personal, it does actually make good fiscal sense to make sure your population isn't at home sick for extended periods of time due to not necessarily a complete lack of health care, but under-resourced health care.
Anyone who has ever employed anyone, knows full well, people getting sick costs them a lot of money!
Capitalizt
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Originally posted by Lilith
Wrong!
See, we're not buying cars or houses or clothing with our taxes.
What we're effectively buying through the tax system is health care.
Healthcare is not some hazy abstraction. Like everything else in the world, it boils down to hard assets. What you are buying is the salary of everyone in the healthcare industry..doctors, nurses, janitors..You are buying the medical equipment, the material goods needed to provide healthcare, the people who do construction on hospitals, the drugs, the salaries of scientists researching those drugs, etc. It is basically a government takeover of a massive chunk of the economy, and like every government program in history, it's price tag is probably WAYYY underestimated and Americans will be facing huge tax increases in the coming decades to keep it going. The fact is that the system works for 90% of Americans today. For the 10% that aren't insured, I'm sure there are several things we can do to lower costs and help them get coverage without creating a massive permanent bureaucracy.
quote:
Originally posted by Halcyon+On+On
Roads and education aren't rights either. The almighty constitution makes no mention of them
FYI, the VAST majority of funding for both of these things is currently done on the state level via property and gasoline taxes..which are perfectly constitutional. :)
miamitranceman
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Originally posted by Capitalizt
It is basically a government takeover of a massive chunk of the economy, and like every government program in history, it's price tag is probably WAYYY underestimated and Americans will be facing huge tax increases in the coming decades to keep it going.
But the alternative is to stay where we are and face an unsustainable situation down the road. Of course this new system will cost more in the short run, but I think it's worth it to try something new when the current system is broken/breaking.
MrJiveBoJingles
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Originally posted by Capitalizt
For Congress to guarantee a right to health care, or any other good or service, whether a person can afford it or not, it must diminish someone else's rights, namely their rights to their earnings.
The "right to earnings" is a convention made possible by the legal system and infrastructure provided through taxation. Where would your earnings be without the government that creates the conditions in which a relatively stable, peaceful economy can flourish?
The libertarian trope of "gubmint takes all my money!" simply presumes a prosperous state of anarchy into which government invades and scoops up a big chunk of property. But this presumption is not reality.
EddieZilker
quote:
Originally posted by Capitalizt
Healthcare is not some hazy abstraction. Like everything else in the world, it boils down to hard assets. What you are buying is the salary of everyone in the healthcare industry..doctors, nurses, janitors..You are buying the medical equipment, the material goods needed to provide healthcare, the people who do construction on hospitals, the drugs, the salaries of scientists researching those drugs, etc. It is basically a government takeover of a massive chunk of the economy, and like every government program in history, it's price tag is probably WAYYY underestimated and Americans will be facing huge tax increases in the coming decades to keep it going.
And things aren't expensive, now?
I don't think that overhauling the system isn't an enormous undertaking but let's be realistic since nothing but the most strenuous efforts at obfuscation have been made by the private health-care industry - namely insurance and drug companies. Their bottom line is based on less than judicious prices levied on the American public.
Let's not forget about the medical loan loan-sharks. These bottom feeders, capitalizing off of an over-burdened, mismanaged system, dole out 33% APR loans to people who's other alternative is death/agonizing pain.
It's a sham! It's ridiculous that it hasn't been torn down already and if government doesn't do it, it will implode on its own volition.
Lilith
quote:
Originally posted by Capitalizt
Healthcare is not some hazy abstraction. Like everything else in the world, it boils down to hard assets. What you are buying is the salary of everyone in the healthcare industry..doctors, nurses, janitors..You are buying the medical equipment, the material goods needed to provide healthcare, the people who do construction on hospitals, the drugs,
They're already built. Vast majority of hospitals here are built and the staff paid out of taxpayers dollars and for some reason, we're not exactly troubled about doing that.
Why is that you think?
Probably because in the inevitable, yes inevitable- you will get sick at some point, you're going to want to go somewhere that you can get fixed up... and for some 'unusual' reason our economy seems to be able to sustain that. Because its already been factored into our taxable income system, the problem in America is that it literally has outstripped the ability for people to pay for it out of their own pockets.
quote:
the salaries of scientists researching those drugs, etc.
Fairly much ALL of the mass production and research into medical chemistry and equipment is done by privately owned corporations. The fact you openly dabble in the stock market without knowing how this works is very disturbing.
Comrade Stalin
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Originally posted by Capitalizt
Do steps need to be taken to reduce costs? Yep.
Is it an "entitlement"? F*ck no. Anyone who speaks of the "right" to healthcare is not speaking of a right at all. He is speaking about an arbitrary CLAIM placed over the lives, labor, and property of those expected to satisfy the claims. Nobody is entitled to the time and labor of health care providers any more than they are entitled to a job, a house, a car, food, clothing, or any other finite material asset. This sort of attitude (reminiscent of FDR's "freedom from want" nonsense) is tyrannical bull of the highest order.
Why should anyone have to earn healthcare?
Moongoose
Still happy with your ensurance company?
EddieZilker
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Originally posted by Comrade Stalin
Why should anyone have to earn healthcare?
That's our free-market economy. Nothing but complete and utter deregulation. It's a dog-eat-dog world out there and if you can't (or won't) compete then there is something deficient with you and you're not worthy of anything, let alone health care.
On second thought, Lira - those chips...
Capitalizt
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Originally posted by Comrade Stalin
Why should anyone have to earn healthcare?
Why should anyone have to earn food? Why should people need to pay for shelter, clothing, transportation, etc? Why should anyone have to earn a living? These things are needed by everyone. Should we declare them entitlements? If not, why not?
quote:
Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles
The "right to earnings" is a convention made possible by the legal system and infrastructure provided through taxation. Where would your earnings be without the government that creates the conditions in which a relatively stable, peaceful economy can flourish?
Nobody objects to the necessities for a stable, peaceful economy (roads, courts, police, maybe a library or two, etc) but this goes far beyond that. When you enshrine a limited material good as an entitlement, you necessarily enslave (to one degree or another) those expected to provide and/or pay for it. Are we entitled to be free from aggression? Do we have the right to live and trade without fear of theft or violence? Yes. But as the article says, those kind of rights impose no burden on others. Saying "don't attack me" doesn't infringe on my neighbor's life. Saying "feed me and pay my bills" certainly does.
quote:
It's a sham! It's ridiculous that it hasn't been torn down already and if government doesn't do it, it will implode on its own volition.
If the government gets it's way, it will implode much faster. Many people like to cry "change..change!" and assume it will be for the better, but any first year econ student who has looked at the contents of this bill will be able to spot the seeds of disaster. Mark my words..The mandates placed on insurance companies by the current legislation GUARANTEE the collapse and bankruptcy of every private health insurance company within a decade. There is simply no way companies can survive with the forced mandate to cover everything..to not charge more for high risk patients, etc. This whole plan really seems designed to bankrupt the insurance companies thereby ensuring a demand for outright nationalization later.
pkcRAISTLIN
quote:
Originally posted by Capitalizt
If the government gets it's way, it will implode much faster. Many people like to cry "change..change!" and assume it will be for the better, but any first year econ student who has looked at the contents of this bill will be able to spot the seeds of disaster. Mark my words..The mandates placed on insurance companies by the current legislation GUARANTEE the collapse and bankruptcy of every private health insurance company within a decade. There is simply no way companies can survive with the forced mandate to cover everything..to not charge more for high risk patients, etc. This whole plan really seems designed to bankrupt the insurance companies thereby ensuring a demand for outright nationalization later.
Maybe the insurance companies should buy insurance :haha:
