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Canada getting some new toys (pg. 8)
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| rabbitjoker |
One of my dearest friends has spent the last 7 years of his life as LCdr in Her Majesty's Canadian Navy and my first cousin served as SPC in US Army stationed in Iraq.
I am proud that the military attracts such high talent to serve in it's armed forces and our country has (finally) decided to give the people who defend our values and our way of life the equipment and tools the deserve to do their job in the safest and most effective way. |
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| exraver |
Your way of life? If by that you mean protecting poppy fields, which are producing 90% of worlds heroin, 100.000 people alone in Russia dies every year from heavy drugs coming from Afghanistan.
“The Canadian Forces in Kandahar, like other Allies, do not engage in poppy eradication, and given the perceived impact on the general security situation and relations with Afghan communities, are leery of becoming identified with counter-narcotics efforts. They do, however, provide support as appropriate to Afghan-led efforts to implement the counter-narcotics strategy.”
http://www2.parl.gc.ca/Content/LOP/...s/prb0718-e.htm |
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| Yohan |
| quote: | Originally posted by exraver
Your way of life? If by that you mean protecting poppy fields, which are producing 90% of worlds heroin, 100.000 people alone in Russia dies every year from heavy drugs coming from Afghanistan.
“The Canadian Forces in Kandahar, like other Allies, do not engage in poppy eradication, and given the perceived impact on the general security situation and relations with Afghan communities, are leery of becoming identified with counter-narcotics efforts. They do, however, provide support as appropriate to Afghan-led efforts to implement the counter-narcotics strategy.”
http://www2.parl.gc.ca/Content/LOP/...s/prb0718-e.htm |
clearly you have zero clue about counterinsurgency in Afghanistan. the key to winning any counterinsurgency is to win the support of the local population. pissing them off isn't going to do that
average afghan farmer has choice of growing crops. what do you think he'll grow that'd best support his family? poppies, because that pays the most.
due to climate, lack of good irrigation system, it's hard to grow most crops in afghanistan. so the farmer doesn't have a lot of choice.
and there isn't much of alternates... yet. it'll take a long time to build infrastructure to provide an alternate living that'd pay just as much as growing poppies.
so, by taking away average farmer's living, it just pisses him off, and probably his entire village because they are probably related by blood, if not by tribe.
poppy field eradication program did occur before, but it stopped because it just pissed off the local farmers. (not to mention it was done selectively by afghan govt)
so, the main effort in counternarcotics is taking out the processing facilities and transporting of opium.
anas, i haven't forgotten about you. i just don't have the time to write an essay to your question lol |
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| VDub |
| Are you actually blaming the Canadian military because 100 Russians die from heroin addiction??? |
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| Yohan |
| quote: | Originally posted by Anas Attia
For the third time, and rephrased this time, I will ask:
Due to my lack of knowledge, I am unaware of whom Canada's potential threats are and would like to find out from those who are supporting the for mentioned increase in Military spending?
Again, to make this even clearer, I will fight if the cause is worth it, as you can see I am stuck on the cause part of my understanding and wanted to find out more.
Edit:
Also you are right when you say "except they are more prone to being used politically than cops and firefighters" I would not say anything more or less than that, hence the questions. |
I'm no expert, and this is just my opinion, so take it for what it's worth.
"To secure peace is to prepare for war."
Karl Von Clausewitz
"War is regarded as nothing but the continuation of state policy with other means."
Karl Von Clausewitz
I think your question will be better answered if rephrased as "What is the role of the Canadian military in protecting the interests of Canada"
I think you and I can both agree that the primary role of any responsible government is to protect the lives and interests its citizen by any means. How each government does this will differ by circumstances and resources each nation has.
Most nations will have some sort of means to protect its territory from physical intrusion by other military. It means building a military that a nation deems sufficient for its purposes.
Canada is somewhat blessed to be in more of an isolated geographically, and our only neighbour connected by land is an ally. So, it is easy to think that since Canada isn't going to be physically invaded anytime soon, there is no need for a huge military.
Problem is, when you need your military and you don't have it, you are screwed. Canada didn't quite find itself to get involved in World War 2, so we didn't have any real signifcant military at the start of WW2. It's like insurance; you probably won't need it, but you have it just in case.
Especially in modern times, when technology made war possible to be fought in matter of days, instead of years of long, drawn out campaign, it becomes critical that you have a standing military ready to respond and hold the enemy, at least until reserves can be mobilized.
Keeping a well trained and well equipped army is expensive, especially a modern soldier. For example, infantry used to be considered the cheapest and most easily trainable soldier. Today, due to complex technology and advancement in tactics and weaponry, it takes about 5-6 months to get one qualified infantry private in Canada. Add in some specialization courses, because you need drivers and advanced machinegunners and etc, it becomes longer and more expensive to train that one soldier.
Some specialist can take up to 2 years to get basic qualified soldier in that trade. Takes years to acquire expensive equipment like new fighters and tanks.
So, if you don't have the soldiers when you need them, you are going to be screwed.
Now I'm sure what I've said isn't going to convince you that Canada doesn't need a big military. So, I am not done. lol
So, if not using military directly, how does a government protect and promote interests of it's citizens?
Going to be a bit philosophical here. And some politics. I believe that most human actions are driven by 3 things; the drive to survive, greed and pleasure. I'm going to concentrate on the first two.
We want to live. Well, most of the time. And we would do almost anything to keep on living. It's ingrained in our basic nature to struggle to survive, and we do many things to increase our odds of survival. It could be almost unnoticeable things like breathing and eating, to building a nuclear fallout shelter in your backyard. (because some people are crazy like that)
Back in caveman times, whoever was the biggest, strongest, fastest and had the mightiest club usually had the better odds of survival. He was the mightiest warrior in his village and the chicks digged him. (Is that why even today, a lot of women prefer the big, muscular type of guys because they think they offer more protection?) This dude was usually a leader in his village and people looked for him for guidance. (the other guy was usually the elder guy who's suppose to be wiser)
It's not surprising that a lot of cultures put their warriors at the centre of their society. Those guys are the guys who'd protect their village and tribes when war came. If you aren't the biggest, baddest warrior in the village, you either joined his group, or align yourself to people who can offer you protection. It's just a sensible thing to do to promote your odds of survival.
Greed exists I think primarily because it also enhances your odds of survival. More money you have, more things you can buy in order to enhance your survival. So, people steal from others if they can get away with it. Nations sometimes go to war just to acquire more resources. So, we do much to protect ourselves from greed, while trying to be greedy against others.
I think even in modern times, somewhat similar, if not more subtle and latent streak still exists in our mind. Nations still big militaries, because they want to be the baddest dudes on the block.
If you don't have a big military, you ally yourself with someone who does. In a way, Canada didn't have much of a choice who it will be allied with. Canada, as British colony, aligned itself with whoever Britain was friendly with. Because of how most Canadian citizens felt about Britain to up to about end of WW2, any government that would go against Britain just wouldn't get elected. Plus Britain used to have the biggest and baddest military prior to start of WW2, so it made sense to be allied to Britain.
After WW2, Canada choose to stay allied with US, Britain and Western European nations against Soviet Russia. It just made sense for Canada's survival. We share a border with US and it's freaking huge. Just doesn't make any sense to piss of the Yanks, especially when Canada doesn't have a military that can stand up to the Yanks.
And Canada happens to be blessed with a huge land with lots of resources that can be converted into goods that other nations want and make us rich. So, gotta have something that'd stop other nations from thinking of invading canada so they could have those resources for themselves.
Even our allies want a piece of us! Like the Danes over Hans Island because it's got oil or some other natural resources around that island. Or that fishing dispute off of Grand Bank with the Spanish that had implications of possible shooting war. Heck, even the Yanks want to declare Northwest Passage international waters because it'd be advantageous to them, when it clearly belongs to Canada.
So, being a nation that can't afford a huge military, Canada decided to ally itself to the nation with the biggest and baddest military. US. And NATO. Which actually started off from an idea by a Canadian diplomat. Having a big dude on our side probably does much to enhance our survival.
So, would it make more sense to just entrust our defence to Yanks and go on with our merry lives? I think not.
Well, a lot of you would throw a fit if Canada becomes a puppet of Yanks, which entrusting our defence to US would ensure that we would become. Heck, I would to.
And in modern politics and diplomacy, deeds still speak louder than words. Words are cheap. Actions take more effort and are expensive.
So, if Canada is to do things internationally in order to get other nations to listen to Canada and do things for Canada, Canada has to have influence in modern world. Being nice just isn't going to get Canada what it wants.
For many years, Canada has put a lot of resources into buying influence. Like, we give a lot of money to other nations. And we do things for other nations. We go on a lot of UN peacekeeping missions. And now, Bosnia and Afghanistan.
I don't believe we send our soldiers on these missions for purely altruistic purposes, although Canada does a lot of these missions because it is the right and the good thing to do. The political interests involved means something like, "you scratch my back, I scratch yours' gets done. Or else if altruism is the primary motivator to get involved in peacekeeping and peacemaking missions, Canada would certainly be involved in more of them.
So for things that Canada wanted get done, like the Anti Personnel Landmine treaty for major things, or little backdoor deals that diplomats do for each others benefit, it won't get done without political influence.
Sometimes the cynical side of me says, Canada buys political influence with blood of its soldiers. Harsh, but I think more simple way of explaining things. Either way, Canada has more political influence than nations like Uganda or Bhutan because 1. we have more money than these guys and 2. we do for other nations so they owe us a few favours. It's good for Canada's interest when other nations listen to us.
So, in order to get political favours by going on peacekeeping missions and whatnot, Canada needs an effective military. Now it'd be much simpler to just send in a dude with a gun as peacekeeper, but he wouldn't be that effective because dude with a gun isn't taken that seriously by that guy who might want to make trouble. Now, if that peacekeeper with a gun is backed by a tank and a fighter bomber, and the potential troublemaker knows that if he does something stupid, he might get his ass kicked, he won't make trouble. Dude with a gun isn't that intimidating. Dude with a gun in a tank, now that makes people their pants.
Nothing more embarrassing than going on a peacekeeping mission and have that botched, because you didn't have enough soldiers trained properly with good equipment and training and a clear, strong mandate. In order to be a good peacekeeper, you have to be a good soldier first, and you can't get good soldiers if you aren't willing to put in the money and effort to produce them.
Then sometimes you get sent to places like Afghanistan and fight dudes like Taliban and you need some serious kit. Because Taliban plays for keeps. It's frigging expensive. If you actually go through the process that Canadian military does in order to send just one soldier to go to Afghanistan, you'd be like, wtf. Because it's very time consuming and expensive as hell. But Canadian government has decided that individual soldier's lives are actually worth something, so we make the effort to ensure these soldier get the stuff they need in order to do their jobs well.
I believe a major part to why Canada is respected by the world is because the good job our soldiers do. We produce some of the best soldiers in the world who are pretty good at their job. And Canada put money where the mouth is.
So basically, Canada needs a decent sized and effective military not just to physically defend Canada from external attacks, just in case it happens, but to project Canada's influence worldwide by participating in missions that Canadian government deems necessary to promote and protect the interests of Canada.
This issue is rather complex and I tried to keep my explanation as simple as possible. So that means there will be spots where it's unclear or holes in my reasoning. Heck, I may be even completely wrong. That happens often. I didn't even put down a lot of more minor, but worthy considerations that should be taken into account. I've spent enough time on this post as it is lol.
Anyways, thanks for reading because you must be either really bored, or really interested in this topic. lol. More than happy to answer any questions you may have. |
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| Orko |
| quote: | Originally posted by VDub
Are you actually blaming the Canadian military because 100 Russians die from heroin addiction??? |
That's what it sounds like! |
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| WittyHandle |
| Before you buy more toys, put some money into hiring adequate border patrol agents. The ones that I regularly encounter on the way to Mtl are 20 year olds whose every means of expression scream insecurity ridden power trip. The American ones on the way back to VT are mature and well trained people that I feel comfortable covering our borders. |
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| jester |
| quote: | Originally posted by WittyHandle
Before you buy more toys, put some money into hiring adequate border patrol agents. The ones that I regularly encounter on the way to Mtl are 20 year olds whose every means of expression scream insecurity ridden power trip. The American ones on the way back to VT are mature and well trained people that I feel comfortable covering our borders. |
I never like the border patrol going into the US via NY or VT. They give me for having a Nexus Pass damn pricks. |
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| WittyHandle |
Border patrol agents aren't generally supposed to be nice, and I'm totally fine with that. The Canadian kids stationed at the VT point of entry are clearly just gorging on the first sense of power they've ever had in their lives, and it clouds their ability to do a very important job. Do you really want 20 year olds determining who can enter your country?
I was pulled in for inspection, apparently because I told them I was coming up for Piknic, had my car torn apart, and was brought inside because I had a bottle of Tylenol with some ibuprofen and Aleve liquigels in it. They said I was bringing in drugs to go to a rave, even after I explained Piknic's ligitimacy and offered to show the website. I had to try not to burst out laughing when they counted the Tylenol, ibuprofen, and Aleve with stern intensity, documenting each one. You could just see the stupidity in these guys' eyes. I couldn't have been more polite and cooperative, but they bruskly barked "We know what you're doing, tell us who you know, what your intentions are" etc..
Funny thing is, I had a ziploc of vitamin c in a part of the car that, of anything in the vehicle, looked like drugs, but they didn't say a thing about it.
Each of the three agents I encountered were incredibly unintelligent and if I had been doing anything illegal, I could've easily gotten out of it.
I don't have a problem with authority figures doing such an important job, but do it well. These guys were seriously lacking training. |
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| Abercrombie |
| Frontline border guards just need to be able to tell if you're bulting or not. It's the guys in secondary inspection where you will get seasoned experience to root outthe reAL liars. |
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| WittyHandle |
| Good point. However, in this case, the second string was pretty unintelligent as well. This was my only experience inside the building though, so I don't know how representative they are of their coworkers. |
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| jester |
| quote: | | Tories poised to announced controversial, sole-sourced $16B jet purchase |
(Courtesy of Winnipeg Free Press) |
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