Originally posted by Quazar
Also, I'll leave this here. The first 30 minutes or so is the important part, it explains how money in the US works. After that it begins to move into a lot of rhetoric. Still good, though.
is this the second or third one? all pieces of look the same to me.
could you outline the parts you found interesting?
Quazar
quote:
Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
is this the second or third one? all pieces of look the same to me.
could you outline the parts you found interesting?
I believe it's the 2nd one.
The most interesting parts are:
1. The detailing of how the US creates money out of thin air by way of the Fed.
2. That all money is payment of debt, a concept most people don't quite get.
3. Interest charged by banks is also money being created out of thin air, because that additional money being paid for interest isn't part of the money supply, thus creating the need for new money.
4. The system is ultimately designed to top out and fail at some point. Technology causes more and more jobs to be done by machines, thus higher unemployment over time, coupled with an increasing population and lower value of money due to inflation.
5. The US expanded this same system of debt to the World Bank and IMF.
6. The US "buys" poor countries, by giving them loans they can't afford to pay back, and then forcing the countries to sell back resources at a cut rate.
7. The whole system is designed as a form of advanced indentured servitude, whereby to get anything you must go into debt, and working at a job is paying off your debt.
Then it goes into a new idea for a "resource-based economy", rather than a monetary-based one, blah blah.
The most interesting thing to me is that it appears that China is currently doing to us what we've done to small countries for half a century. The video doesn't say this, but it seems obvious. They're loaning us money we can't pay back.
pkcRAISTLIN
yeah, i found a transcript. just the typical anti Fed/banking/fiat/fractional lending nonsense expanded from the first. nothing to see here.
quote:
Originally posted by Quazar
I believe it's the 2nd one.
The most interesting parts are:
1. The detailing of how the US creates money out of thin air by way of the Fed.
All countries that matter use the exact same process. it has been the most stable and efficient method of currency generation that has yet been tried.
quote:
Originally posted by Quazar
2. That all money is payment of debt, a concept most people don't quite get.
Actually, it isn't. government can create as much money as they want whenever they want to. the reason they don't do this is because it undermines faith in that currency. ie zimbabwe didn't sell bonds, it just printed money. what happened?
quote:
Originally posted by Quazar
3. Interest charged by banks is also money being created out of thin air, because that additional money being paid for interest isn't part of the money supply, thus creating the need for new money.
this is incorrect. interest charged by banks isn't burned or buried or otherwise "disappeared". it is still part of the money supply. the bank has to pay its cleaners, employees, shareholders etc. no new money is required to pay the interest.
quote:
Originally posted by Quazar
4. The system is ultimately designed to top out and fail at some point. Technology causes more and more jobs to be done by machines, thus higher unemployment over time, coupled with an increasing population and lower value of money due to inflation.
technology changes also create new opportunities for employment. perhaps not quite as many sure, but this has nothing to do with monetary policy. each individual unit of currency devalues over time, yes, but this isn't necessarily a problem. compare say, the depression and the deflating value of a currency (ie the dollar was worth more) versus any other time in recent memory. who was better off?
quote:
Originally posted by Quazar
5. The US expanded this same system of debt to the World Bank and IMF.
the monetary mechanics as described in Modern Money Mechanics (which zeitgeist paraphrases and bastardises awfully) were independently adopted by virtually the whole world.
quote:
Originally posted by Quazar
6. The US "buys" poor countries, by giving them loans they can't afford to pay back, and then forcing the countries to sell back resources at a cut rate.
poor countries shouldn't agree to terms they cant meet. not saying its right, but poor countries have to hold some of the responsibility.
quote:
Originally posted by Quazar
7. The whole system is designed as a form of advanced indentured servitude, whereby to get anything you must go into debt, and working at a job is paying off your debt.
while this can be true of certain things (houses, cars holidays) it is hardly representative of "things" generally.
quote:
Originally posted by Quazar
Then it goes into a new idea for a "resource-based economy", rather than a monetary-based one, blah blah.
yeah, the resource-based economy is complete nonsense which is why its in a youtube video and not being seriously debated by the world's economists.
quote:
Originally posted by Quazar
The most interesting thing to me is that it appears that China is currently doing to us what we've done to small countries for half a century. The video doesn't say this, but it seems obvious. They're loaning us money we can't pay back.
the US can pay back as much money as it needsto. it can print as much money as it wants to meet its debt obligations, short-changing china in the process by paying back with devalued US dollars. indeed i suspect over the next decade or so this will be how the US deals with its debt burden.
...
zeitgeist is (mostly) a bunch of lies and sleight-of-hand tricks to fool the uninitiated. don't pay any of them too much attention (though i have heard the third one's first part is better than the rest, but that's not saying much).
Quazar
I appreciate the counter, I knew the video had to be leaving a lot of stuff out.
Ultimately, as somewhat of an idealist I hate how BS our entire economy is. I mean building a society out of competition seems to glorify one of the most negative aspects of humanity, not to mention garbage like speculative trading, but I understand it's worked better in the modern world than anything else.
One of the ideas in the video I do agree with, however, is the idea that our money-based society could actually hinder advancement of technology. Clearly it's encouraged new development for a long time, but now when you're at a point where you have the resources and knowledge to create something, but not the financial ability, it becomes a little strange.
Ultimately, the US military is what backs up our dollar. It's why we can take as many loans as we want, because we can ensure our existence in order to theoretically pay them back. It's definitely a last resort, though.
I just don't see how the monetary system (in its current form) can really last for another century or two without sparking an uprising.
Fledz
Bitch, your stimulus looks fine to me.
Zharen
quote:
Originally posted by Nrg2Nfinit
What more do you want?
For this thread to reach ten pages. Mission accomplished. I'm happy. :)
EddieZilker
quote:
Originally posted by Fledz
Bitch, your stimulus looks fine to me.
:stongue: :stongue: :stongue:
srussell0018
quote:
Originally posted by Quazar
I just don't see how the monetary system (in its current form) can really last for another century or two without sparking an uprising.
Why do you care? Do you plan on living until 2200?
pkcRAISTLIN
quote:
Originally posted by Quazar
I appreciate the counter, I knew the video had to be leaving a lot of stuff out.
Yeah, I’ve only seen the first zeitgeist but it was so full of I don’t see any reason to repeat the dose. I have no problem with “alternative” perspectives, but when those perspectives are substantiated by lies and nonsense, I get pretty pissed off.
quote:
Originally posted by Quazar
Ultimately, as somewhat of an idealist I hate how BS our entire economy is. I mean building a society out of competition seems to glorify one of the most negative aspects of humanity, not to mention garbage like speculative trading, but I understand it's worked better in the modern world than anything else.
Which is really the point. I don’t disagree that capitalism has all kinds of problems and contradictions, but so far it has done far more for improving the conditions of mankind than any other system of social & economic organisation.
quote:
Originally posted by Quazar
One of the ideas in the video I do agree with, however, is the idea that our money-based society could actually hinder advancement of technology. Clearly it's encouraged new development for a long time, but now when you're at a point where you have the resources and knowledge to create something, but not the financial ability, it becomes a little strange.
Well, I would argue that the current monetary system is better placed to provide the financial support for those who want to capitalise on their resources and knowledge. For instance, fractional reserve lending ensures that there is enough money at a reasonable price to go around.
quote:
Originally posted by Quazar
Ultimately, the US military is what backs up our dollar. It's why we can take as many loans as we want, because we can ensure our existence in order to theoretically pay them back. It's definitely a last resort, though.
Well, I would suggest that the faith in the $US is what “backs” the dollar. Everyone knows that all US debts can be paid for by a $US.
quote:
Originally posted by Quazar
I just don't see how the monetary system (in its current form) can really last for another century or two without sparking an uprising.
The current monetary system can indeed be placed under stress, but only in certain specific conditions (ie the recent GFC). However, as long as inflation is kept at a reasonable level (ie 2%-3% is the usual target band) and employment maintains high, I don’t see any uprising occurring specifically because of fiat, fractional lending or central banking. Indeed, central banking’s central mandate is to maintain stability in the financial system, which I think the Fed in particular did spectacularly well during the recent crisis.
Nrg2Nfinit
quote:
Originally posted by Zharen
For this thread to reach ten pages. Mission accomplished. I'm happy. :)
sorry to sound like such a prick and go off on lecturing. Im just trying to get accross the point that, yes the stimulus is and did benefit the people.
Zharen
quote:
Originally posted by Nrg2Nfinit
sorry to sound like such a prick and go off on lecturing. Im just trying to get accross the point that, yes the stimulus is and did benefit the people.
Very well. I can accept your opinion. I'm not a Teabagger after all. ;)
Fledz
It's also important to note we are on page three, not ten.
