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Saddam Hussein convicted to death by hanging (pg. 8)
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| nusty |
| quote: | Originally posted by EvilTree
So, what, 50/50 split b/w US and the insurgents? (haha)
I'm sure the Germans and the Japanese after WW2 agrees with you. Or not.
The changes brought and forced upon them are continuously in effect today. Or Russian revolution and the Civil War. That didn't last permanently, but it sure did last a long time.
History always repeats itself, because humanity has such a short term memory |
If you look at the flip side of the German note, you can see that those it occupied didn't keep thier ideals. Think of all of the civil wars throughout Africa and how almost every time a country goes in and puts in place a new gov't they end reverting back to thier old ways within a decade.
I don't know enough on Russian History to comment on that example and I'm not even going to pretend to so you may very well have a great counter point on me there.
Btw: the first part you quoted me on was supposed to be phrased as a question, not a statement.
And I agree that history will repeat itself on this war just as you mentioned and I hinted at. |
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| extacy_bomb |
| quote: | Originally posted by nusty
not caring how it happened is the reason why your opinion on any of this has no credit what so ever.
Thousands dead and billions in infastructure damages that may take 50 years to repair is a step in the right direction? History has shown that societies change when they are ready, not when war forces them to change. Changes forced by war are usually always reversed within a 10 year span of the end of the war.
I highly doubt that the next generation will forget this incident. It's kind of hard when you grow up knowing people who were directly affected and you can see the evidence of it everyday as you are surrounded by destruction and on going civil conflict. |
If so why don you look back at japan and how they totally changed after the war ended? Didn't they progress to the better? What do you think would happen if USA didn't drop the bombs? you think they would have a better country now?
I'm pretty sure not. same goes with IRaq and afghanistan. everything we do have consequences. hence any war should have some advantages and disadvantages. so don come to any conclusion now, i pretty much assure you that iraq will be a better place in the future, it might take years but if this never happend the dictatorship would stay there for ever ,and the longer it stays the longer its roots grow.
So my verdict is ,this is for the better.
p.s the 2nd post was only a joke...
p.s.s gone to make myself a cup of tea :D |
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| EvilTree |
| quote: | Originally posted by nusty
If you look at the flip side of the German note, you can see that those it occupied didn't keep thier ideals. |
You're talking about German occupied nations? At least that's what I'm understanding as what you're trying to say.
The Nazis didn't care about occupied nations, except when it comes to further its interest, so didn't bother to try to impose Nazi ideas, except when it was good to do so and generally they didn't bother.
| quote: | | Think of all of the civil wars throughout Africa and how almost every time a country goes in and puts in place a new gov't they end reverting back to thier old ways within a decade. |
I can't think of any example (oh wait, maybe Namibia and South Africa in 80s) unless you're talking about UN intervention or legacy of colonialism or something. |
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| SummerCallin |
| quote: | Originally posted by extacy_bomb
i pretty much assure you that iraq will be a better place in the future, it might take years but if this never happend the dictatorship would stay there for ever ,and the longer it stays the longer its roots grow.
So my verdict is ,this is for the better.
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thank u *BOWS*
:rolleyes: |
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| Cosmic Fur |
Russian revolution was brought on by the peasants of Russia, not by external forces. Totally different. In fact, it's those same peasants of Iraq that are ing everything up for USA. If you don't have the support of the people you are trying to "liberate" all your attempts will be fruitless, as nusty is saying.
And how did Japan change exactly? |
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| hardcore trancer |
| yaaaaaaaaaa lets nuke everyone!!!so that they can forget about it in the future and become a democratic country. :rolleyes: |
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| EvilTree |
| quote: | Originally posted by extacy_bomb
If so why don you look back at japan and how they totally changed after the war ended? Didn't they progress to the better? What do you think would happen if USA didn't drop the bombs? you think they would have a better country now?
I'm pretty sure not. same goes with IRaq and afghanistan. everything we do have consequences. hence any war should have some advantages and disadvantages. so don come to any conclusion now, i pretty much assure you that iraq will be a better place in the future, it might take years but if this never happend the dictatorship would stay there for ever ,and the longer it stays the longer its roots grow.
So my verdict is ,this is for the better.
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3 years is nothing in history.
Reconstructing Iraq and Afghanistan will probably take a generation.
But no one can really predict the long term effects... |
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| nusty |
| quote: | Originally posted by extacy_bomb
If so why don you look back at japan and how they totally changed after the war ended? Didn't they progress to the better? What do you think would happen if USA didn't drop the bombs? you think they would have a better country now?
I'm pretty sure not. same goes with IRaq and afghanistan. everything we do have consequences. hence any war should have some advantages and disadvantages. so don come to any conclusion now, i pretty much assure you that iraq will be a better place in the future, it might take years but if this never happend the dictatorship would stay there for ever ,and the longer it stays the longer its roots grow.
So my verdict is ,this is for the better.
p.s the 2nd post was only a joke...
p.s.s gone to make myself a cup of tea :D |
Japan is a more complicated example than you are giving it credit. they were well on thier way to opening up inovation and technology breakthroughs prior to American occupation. The forced opening of trade routes just sped up the process.
I understand the point you are making in your posts but it's a rather unpopular opinion that forced unjust war is ever for the better. Iraqi society has shown that it was not ready to adjust to democracy yet. enjoy the tea. I'm off to bed. |
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| EvilTree |
| quote: | Originally posted by Cosmic Fur
Russian revolution was brought on by the peasants of Russia, not by external forces. Totally different. In fact, it's those same peasants of Iraq that are ing everything up for USA. If you don't have the support of the people you are trying to "liberate" all your attempts will be fruitless, as nusty is saying.
And how did Japan change exactly? |
Russian revolution was internal, but it was greatly influenced directly and indirectly by outside events. (Mainly WW1) Also, Western powers tried to intervene against the Bolsheviks during the Civil War, albeit effects of that were quite minor to overall Russkies beating each other up. (Heck, even Canadians)
It will be quite interesting to see just exactly what percentage of Iraqis support the insurgents or the Americans. Or hate them both. Or hate each other.
The majority probably don't give a and just want to get on with living (while dodging bullets and suicide bombers to best of their ability) |
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| EvilTree |
| quote: | Originally posted by nusty
Japan is a more complicated example than you are giving it credit. they were well on thier way to opening up inovation and technology breakthroughs prior to American occupation. The forced opening of trade routes just sped up the process. |
I dunno about that. Japan was military led dictatorship prior to end of WW2, and if the military had their way (and they had the guns and the balls to enforce their will) concept such as democracy would never make it to Japan. (But technology and other good stuff? sure)
Esp. if the Emperor supports the military (and by all indications, he did for most part, or at least not interfere). To avg Japanese at the time, if the Emperor said slit your belly, heck of a lot of them would do just that.
But yes. Japs are complex and weird lots :p
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I understand the point you are making in your posts but it's a rather unpopular opinion that forced unjust war is ever for the better. Iraqi society has shown that it was not ready to adjust to democracy yet. enjoy the tea. I'm off to bed. |
Eh. You gotta start somewhere. Many societies required an arm twisting to develop democracy.
Not saying democracy is the best thing, or arm twisting the best method to develop democracy, but some ppl just need an... incentive to get going. |
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| extacy_bomb |
| quote: | Originally posted by hardcore trancer
you still dont make any sense dude.Tell me "why" you think he got what he deserved? |
Cause he was a killer man, he killed so many people . He took the power in iraq and didn't let any other political party to grow, he made the place a totall jail for thier people. he didn't let the sociaty grow ,and that last one is the worst thing that can happen to any country,group, people.
| quote: | Originally posted by hardcore trancer
how?how is having a civil war any good for their future?
so let millions die now so that maybe just maybe things will work out in 50 years? dont think so. |
take a deep look at the history, you'll find all of the countries that has gotten a relief from their dictator regime has progress to better somehow. and in all cases there was a civil war happening in the begining. And that's so expectbale since any changes will have some sort of drama/waste and problem.
| quote: | Originally posted by hardcore trancer
that is "IF" there is a next generation.with the ways things are going now i doubt there will be a Iraq in the future.
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if you compare it to how many people died in WWII with this war it's even nothing. so ya there is a next generation for Iraq which witnessed their cruel leader get what he deserved and which witnoss how democracy could work out for them as well. so it basically makes them ready for a better tomorrow.
| quote: | Originally posted by hardcore trancer
what does this have to do with Iran?:conf:
and tell me about those "roots" please. |
sorry dude if i stated things kind of confusing. I meant if this happen to iran, things will be better in the future. i know i know ,you'r gonna say what happend 25 years ago ,why things got worse, it could have any reason why it got to wrong hands,but by sittin down and doing nothing ,these ROOTS of dictatorship will grow in people's culture and people actually stop carying about thier country and their own rights and think that life would only be this way and there's not a better way.
Jus like hiding in a cave and beeing afraid of comin out and starving to death at the end. but if you came out of the cave you could have gotten some food and survive ,even though it could have had consequences. |
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| hardcore trancer |
| quote: | Originally posted by extacy_bomb
If so why don you look back at japan and how they totally changed after the war ended? Didn't they progress to the better? What do you think would happen if USA didn't drop the bombs? you think they would have a better country now? |
SO you are justifying using nukes to change regimes?wow
| quote: | | I'm pretty sure not. same goes with IRaq and afghanistan. everything we do have consequences. |
and guess who is paying the price for those consequences ? the Afghan and the Iraqi people.:mad:
| quote: | | hence any war should have some advantages and disadvantages. so don come to any conclusion now, |
war and invasion is not a solution to our problems.
| quote: | i pretty much assure you that iraq will be a better place in the future, it might take years but if this never happend the dictatorship would stay there for ever ,and the longer it stays the longer its roots grow.
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ok.:conf: |
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