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Question for the COR women (females and hobbies) (pg. 18)
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| Ania_xox |
| what the is going on in here? |
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| SYSTEM-J |
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
how can you comment on today's games if you haven't played them? the idea that stories were better years and years ago just isn't true. RPGs for instance have much better (interactive) story lines today than at any time previously. |
I have friends who are gamers (lived with three of them last year) and so I still keep up with modern games. I don't buy single-player games myself.
| quote: | | play games like bioshock or batman and tell me games aren't art ;) |
Bioshock is a semi-remake of System Shock (1994 & 1998) and all those great ideas it has are actually 15 years old. I'm not saying it's a bad game, but when a shiny Looking Glass update is the best modern gaming has to offer, it doesn't go far to convince me.
The issue is more complicated than just games are/aren't art. I think the medium has the capacity to be art, but very few games actually reach that level. I've made sure to use words like "most" throughout this thread for that reason. And at the end of the day, even the likes of Planescape Torment don't compare to James Joyce or Stanley Kubrick.
Besides, as has already been stated, we shouldn't treat "art" and "narrative" as interchangable. I think a game like Geometry Wars 2 is a work of art, but it's not narrative art. I actually believe that if games want to go somewhere as a serious artistic medium they should stop trying to compete with literature, cinema and the narrative arts and attempt to be worthwhile in their own respects. Games that are obviously trying to be films make me cringe. |
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| Fledz |
Cheers PKC :gsmile:
| quote: | Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
Not all movies need SFX, you know. You can make a good movie for peanuts.
Wrong. Storytelling is not always art, art is not always storytelling. And this thread is "a form of expression" but this thread is not art.
Read it properly, before you hammer out your frantic riposte. Books and movies are not democracies. A videogame has to be. If you don't let the player have any control of what happens in the game, the player isn't actually playing it. |
* You can also make a great game for peanuts too. What's your point?
* So you're still going to say that storytelling in a game is completely different to storytelling in a book or movie? How out of touch are you?
* Control still has to be limited if you're telling a story. Otherwise it's not a story heavy game, it's a sandbox (ie The Sims).
You, and people like are you the exact reason why we get into issues like this because you allow your heavy bias to dictate your opinion on certain issues.
PKC made a good point too which I missed, the fact that you're comparing modern games to classic games when you yourself admitted you don't even play modern games.
EDIT - Just saw your reply. It's still not your opinion, it's the opinion of your friends. |
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| Omega_Blue |
what is "art"? no one will ever reach a general agreement about what art is or is not, what it can or cannot be. i'd argue that just about anything conceived, performed, or created can be art- , the act of not performing can be considered art.
basically what i'm trying to tell you is that the "is it or is it not art" argument will get both of you guys nowhere |
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| Arbiter |
Here's some video game art for y'all:
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| Fledz |
| quote: | Originally posted by Omega_Blue
what is "art"? no one will ever reach a general agreement about what art is or is not, what it can or cannot be. i'd argue that just about anything conceived, performed, or created can be art- , the act of not performing can be considered art.
basically what i'm trying to tell you is that the "is it or is it not art" argument will get both of you guys nowhere |
This is very true. I'm just trying to get him to admit that games are just as valid a story telling medium as the others :) |
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| SYSTEM-J |
| quote: | Originally posted by Fledz
* You can also make a great game for peanuts too. What's your point? |
I'll repeat, since you ignored it the first time:
"...the industry is dominated by the rich publishers and developers who have a complete creative stranglehold on ouput."
| quote: | | * So you're still going to say that storytelling in a game is completely different to storytelling in a book or movie? How out of touch are you? |
I've never said that, you ing moron. Stop using strawman fallacies and learn to ing read.
| quote: | | * Control still has to be limited if you're telling a story. Otherwise it's not a story heavy game, it's a sandbox (ie The Sims). |
Thanks for confirming my point.
| quote: | | You, and people like are you the exact reason why we get into issues like this because you allow your heavy bias to dictate your opinion on certain issues. |
Where as you're completely impartial and unbiased on this subject? off. You're clearly defending the medium to the death because you invest so much time and money into it. No matter how hard you try and misrepresent me, I am not ignorant or lacking in experience. There is no argument you will level against me that will make me go away. I know exactly what I'm talking about.
| quote: | Originally posted by Fledz
EDIT - Just saw your reply. It's still not your opinion, it's the opinion of your friends. |
No, because I actually play the games and see their much-vaunted storytelling in action, wad. |
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| SYSTEM-J |
| quote: | Originally posted by Omega_Blue
what is "art"? no one will ever reach a general agreement about what art is or is not, what it can or cannot be. i'd argue that just about anything conceived, performed, or created can be art- , the act of not performing can be considered art. |
I don't believe in redundant definitions. One of the most universally agreed criteria for art is that art is subjective. There are many aspects of games that are not subjective, for reasons given.
Although it's worth repeating that I'm not listing reasons why games aren't art per se, but rather why the overall quality of the medium is not as high as that of cinema or literature. The problems gaming faces can be overcome, which is why idiotic statements like "This also applies to film!" doesn't alter my point. The point is that the more problems a medium faces, the less successful examples there will be. |
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| pkcRAISTLIN |
| quote: | Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
I have friends who are gamers (lived with three of them last year) and so I still keep up with modern games. I don't buy single-player games myself. |
fair enough. youre a pretty reasonable kinda guy and im sure you can make valid assessments with that kind of exposure. still though, you're probably still missing out on the odd thing here and there.
| quote: | Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
Bioshock is a semi-remake of System Shock (1994 & 1998) and all those great ideas it has are actually 15 years old. |
yeah, i could never get SS2 to run very well :( so i never really played it. but from what i gather from general reception, SS2 is a better GAME, but imo bioshock is much closer to art out of the 2.
imo the ambience, the textures, the artistic design and the sound & music in bioshock, counts as art.
| quote: | Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
The issue is more complicated than just games are/aren't art. I think the medium has the capacity to be art, but very few games actually reach that level. I've made sure to use words like "most" throughout this thread for that reason. |
oh, absolutely. most games are just games, which i reckon is probably a good thing!
| quote: | Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
And at the end of the day, even the likes of Planescape Torment don't compare to James Joyce or Stanley Kubrick. |
but at the same time, i feel that there are certain games that easily surpass what is available in other mediums. considering how much more removed a code monkey is from his work, when compared to the ease of using a brush or a pencil or camera or your own voice, if anything i have even more respect for the artistic merit of games, when compared to other forms of artistic endeavour. games like bioshock are one big pretty picture that took more hours to paint than the sistine chapel.
| quote: | Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
Besides, as has already been stated, we shouldn't treat "art" and "narrative" as interchangable. I think a game like Geometry Wars 2 is a work of art, but it's not narrative art. I actually believe that if games want to go somewhere as a serious artistic medium they should stop trying to compete with literature, cinema and the narrative arts and attempt to be worthwhile in their own respects. Games that are obviously trying to be films make me cringe. |
i for one wasn't interchanging "art" and "narrative". imo designing a map that really draws the player into the game, that counts as art. but yeah, i dont think games have (or should) try and be taken as a serious artistic medium, because i think that might get in the way of the fun. |
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| SYSTEM-J |
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
but at the same time, i feel that there are certain games that easily surpass what is available in other mediums. considering how much more removed a code monkey is from his work, when compared to the ease of using a brush or a pencil or camera or your own voice, if anything i have even more respect for the artistic merit of games, when compared to other forms of artistic endeavour. games like bioshock are one big pretty picture that took more hours to paint than the sistine chapel. |
I'm not disrespecting the task of making a game. One of my points is it's so hard to make a professional looking game that it takes a team of talented people, which limits the possibility of an "underground" of game design. I respect the developers that do manage to make great games, but the difficulty is inherent in the medium and it's not going to become easier as games continue to grow in complexity.
| quote: | | i for one wasn't interchanging "art" and "narrative". imo designing a map that really draws the player into the game, that counts as art. but yeah, i dont think games have (or should) try and be taken as a serious artistic medium, because i think that might get in the way of the fun. |
I understand. The argument crossed over a bit from what I started out arguing with Fledz, and I just wanted to make my position clear. |
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| Joss Weatherby |
System J the game I play is made by a small studio in the Czech Republic with 30 people working there.
They make a simulator that is used by the worlds militarys as well as a stripped down (but not by much) version for public consumption.
The game is MASSIVE. |
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| Fledz |
You originally said most games were designed for children, which in this day in age just isn't true. Then it devolved into some sort of argument about what can and cannot be considered art and/or a valid storytelling medium. We're not going to agree on this so I won't bother pushing it further.
Don't know what the hell you got so pissy about though :rolleyes: |
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