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more *******ing about 'tech house' and 'grand theft culture' (pg. 9)
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| SYSTEM-J |
| I like how when nefardec reduces everyone who disagrees with him to puerile pill-poppers he isn't getting personal, but when someone calls him a skinny white guy the outrage goes up to 11. |
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| shaw |
| quote: | Originally posted by Groundhog Boy
Can we bitch about black people plundering the white man's culture by taking over basketball and football? |
:stongue: |
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| Adam420 |
| I think what is even funnier is that if any of these DJs/producers who were involved with the birth black American dance music culture were to become aware of Adam's staunch defense of their own personal values, they'd probably tell him to piss off and leave these matters the the hands of the black community. |
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| nefardec |
| quote: | Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
I like how when nefardec reduces everyone who disagrees with him to puerile pill-poppers he isn't getting personal, but when someone calls him a skinny white guy the outrage goes up to 11. |
Well, I haven't ignored you, because you actually have useful things to say. I've never read anything worthwhile from Adam420 and Halcyon. They just sit and wait in the thread for the right moment to squirt in the circle jerk.
And you make a good point, I didn't single any person out when I made that comment.
Also, that comment was not directed at anyone who disagreed with me, but rather those who were simply posting useless and contradictory remarks in the thread about how much they don't care. |
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| nefardec |
| quote: | Originally posted by Groundhog Boy
Can we bitch about black people plundering the white man's culture by taking over basketball and football?
You're taking this whole thing way too far. It's no wonder that no one in this thread has agreed with you. With increased cultural integration, this sort of thing is always going to happen. |
Who owns the sports teams?
In fact, I would say you all are taking the whole thing too far. If you want to disagree with me, then disagree with me. If you're only here to flame, then you belong with the pill poppers posting dicks in the COR |
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| LAdazeNYnights |
*fight fight fight!*
Anyway, I can see what you're saying nefardec. As other people have previously mentioned though, you're taking the whole issue too far I think. You're making such broad strokes and some sweeping generalizations that are difficult to agree with at times. Then again, it's often from these sorts of abstract conjectures that a good deal of rational thought emerges.
I first discovered Henrik Schwarz earlier this year and got really hooked on his style and have enjoyed a lot of his releases since then. Reading reviews of some of his releases, the subsequent discussion through comments, and even replies to his videos on youtube I became increasingly and painfully aware (for the first time, really) of this debate, or narrative if you will, on culture, identity, and 'realness' in dance music. Quite a few people seem to completely write off all of Schwarz's releases simply because he lacks credibility to them, or because they feel that he "is making a mockery of black music and has no right to be doing what he's doing". Personally, I think a lot of his stuff ing rocks...but I'm just another white boy :tongue2 so who am I to say?
I tried to look up Schwarz, get some sort of history on him. First, I was curious as to whether Schwarz was his real name or if he simply adopted it for recognition in the house music scene. I wasn't able to find out much about him from my brief google search but I'm sure some of you will be able to tell his story and give opinions on the matter as well. |
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| SYSTEM-J |
| quote: | Originally posted by nefardec
Well, I haven't ignored you, because you actually have useful things to say. I've never read anything worthwhile from Adam420 and Halcyon. They just sit and wait in the thread for the right moment to squirt in the circle jerk. |
Daft as it may sound, I genuinely appreciate that. You've certainly got a way with people, though.
Perhaps I'm being naive about the racism thing. Perhaps you're being hyper-sensitive. The argument isn't going to go anywhere, is it? |
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| Groundhog Boy |
| quote: | Originally posted by nefardec
Who owns the sports teams? |
Did black people own all the record labels that distributed the Detroit/Chicago sounds (I'm including Motown and non-EDM here)? |
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| nefardec |
| quote: | Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
Daft as it may sound, I genuinely appreciate that. You've certainly got a way with people, though.
Perhaps I'm being naive about the racism thing. Perhaps you're being hyper-sensitive. The argument isn't going to go anywhere, is it? |
Yes, I am being hypersensitive about it, and that was clear from the thread title. I feel that it needs to be talked about. I respect and patronize people with original ideas that come from their heart and experiences. When it comes to Detroit and Chicago artists, I feel like a lot of the genius and soul/life of the production is cheapened into a codeword for credibility. I feel that part of the credibility itself is the experience of being a black person in this depressed part of America. Somehow it's tacitly OK for anyone to copy elements, re-edit, or copy tracks even, to gain instant credibility in this fashion.
There is admittedly a blurry line between 'love and theft' here. From my vantage point, not much of this appears to be real homage or respect due. For example, I don't think it's respectful to make knockoff P-Funk and call myself George Clintonville just because I like George Clinton and live in Clintonville. (following the Moodymanc example) I don't think wearing a Soul Train t-shirt to a DJ gig and playing tech house is respectful or credible either. People who wear this on their sleeves as such are suspect to me. Everyone is grasping for images.
In this case, I do believe that Shlomi Aber is grasping for images as well. I think the combination of using detroit/chicago as the thematic content of the album and title and using a portrait of himself on the album is suspect. Even if the photo weren't dark, the whole idea of putting your non-detroit or non-chicago face on such an album is suspect to me. So when I see that the face is rather obviously darkened, as well as abstracted into some semblance of a dark face, rather than a clear photo of the artist himself, and that the resulting image resembles old, dusty portraits of artists such as Robert Johnson, I have a little 'wtf' moment.
At the end of the day, I do want to have a real discussion about this topic, and I see that some of what I write is not in the interests of pursuing an amicable and fair discussion. |
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| bas |
| quote: | Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
"Right Shlomi, because of the whole Detroit/Chicago thing we want to make you look black on the cover to add to your cred."
"But nobody's going to think I'm black, are they? I'm a famous figurehead of the Israeli house scene. That's how I made my name."
"We don't actually want to fool people into thinking you're black. We just want to do it in blackface."
"Wouldn't that leave us and the record label liable for obvious racism, and enrage the people I'm supposed to be paying tribute to?"
"Damn, you're right. Uh... I guess we can sort of make you all scratched and muddy and put you in shadow, so it sort-of makes you look black even though nobody will buy that, and it's sort-of blackface but we can deny it if anyone actually brings that up."
"Right... so what is the point, again?"
"To give you credibility through ambiguously suggestive blackface that we can totally deny."
"Who the is going to give me cred for standing in shadow with all over my face, sort-of maybe looking like I'm black?"
"Trust me on this, Shlomi, trust me." |
See? Adam, you're ing crazy dude :p |
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| Mr.Mystery |
| I love it how the listeners always seem to put way more thought into these things than the artists ever intended. |
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| Halcyon+On+On |
Culture is not static. Sure, it's reasonably valid to criticize the industry for its indulgence in rapacious marketing tactics, but in essence, culture is meant to travel, to develop and to reach its influential tendrils out into the ether of the human transmission. You could try to keep it in your boxes, in your museums, all hermetically sealed and packaged for display purposes only, but in the end it is absolutely meaningless without its ability to inspire people of new generations who are meant to spawn forth cultures of their own. The industry can attempt to direct this to appropriate its own ends, but it fails - just as you fail, nefardec - to realize that packaging culture is like bottling seawater and claiming you've stopped the tide.
That's honestly the most deplorable thing here: the notion that something as meaningless as an album cover could possibly detract from something you deem is worthy of respect. Or even further, buying into the notion that reputation is more important than the music. Because even if you antagonize with the message that the images are portraying, you are still granting them dignity with an outrageous response you have somehow justified through your extensive life experience as a Chicago/Detroit DJ who arose from depressed circumstance instead of being a well-to-do designer from New York, right? In fact, it's really rather a lot like my paying you sarcasm and scorn, because in the end, it brings no illumination whatsoever and in fact cheapens the meaning of what's most important anyway. Funny, that.
I've no doubts whatsoever that you think this is about respect. Though I think you buy into the culture of respect rather than the respect of culture. |
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