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Toronto Elections Oct 25 2010 - Who are YOU voting for? (pg. 11)
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| The Potter |
| quote: | Originally posted by FunkyCrew
it's hardly absurd - in fact I won't be surprised if this will change in the next decade or so, precisely because of people like me are voicing this
a lot of things have changed for landed immigrants/permanent residents as is - esp. in regards to health care, for example..
once again I didn't say I think I'm entitled, I said it would be great because of x, y and z (my length of stay here, received education, have a job + taxes, etc)
bringing in American example doesn't prove anything - their citizenship and immigration laws and regulations are different to ours |
I completely agree with you. Permanent residents ahould at least be able to vote in municipal elections. As in any self-respecting capitalist system for the exchange of goods/services, if someone is for paying for local services, they should have a say in how they are administered. Jay, of all people, should recognise this inalienable right. As it is only giving them partial control of how their taxes are spent, at the immediate local level, there are still ample incentives for them to become citizens, so that they can exert some control over how their federal taxes are used, not forgetting the ability to influence the national laws that are passed, which also directly affect them.
Sometimes the law is an ass, and it can be improved upon. As Funky was saying, the health care laws for landed immigrants have changed for the better over the years, as have many others over Canada's history. Also, I am sure that there are many current laws that you would like to see completely repealed. |
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| shagnew13 |
| quote: | Originally posted by The Potter
I completely agree with you. Permanent residents ahould at least be able to vote in municipal elections. As in any self-respecting capitalist system for the exchange of goods/services, if someone is for paying for local services, they should have a say in how they are administered. Jay, of all people, should recognise this inalienable right. As it is only giving them partial control of how their taxes are spent, at the immediate local level, there are still ample incentives for them to become citizens, so that they can exert some control over how their federal taxes are used, not forgetting the ability to influence the national laws that are passed, which also directly affect them.
Sometimes the law is an ass, and it can be improved upon. As Funky was saying, the health care laws for landed immigrants have changed for the better over the years, as have many others over Canada's history. Also, I am sure that there are many current laws that you would like to see completely repealed. |
I agree with some of what you are saying, and agree the some laws need to be worked on.
But if you would like the right to vote, and have a say in how your tax dollars are being spent, want your voice heard, then by all means become a citizen.
Just because someone has lived here for x-amount of years, doesn't necessarily give them the same rights as a Citizen that was born here. If this was the case, then there would be no need for Citizenship here. Citizenship entitles you the right to vote, have your voice heard, how your money is being spent, a passport and other things, and if you would like those some entitlements then go ahead and become a Citizen. |
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| VDub |
| quote: | Originally posted by FunkyCrew
dude! that's crazy! why didn't you apply the year you became eligible for it?! I'm counting down the months to Feb'11 already! :)
and yeah, travelling will be SO much easier! can't wait :) I'm so tired of all the visa forms I have to apply/fill out every time I'm going somewhere (at least US give out 10 year visas now) |
Cause I was a kid. What did I know...
When I turned 18, i guess I was just used to it and never bothered.
But now that I'm traveling more, it's turning into a pain.... |
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| FunkyCrew |
| quote: | Originally posted by shagnew13
Just because someone has lived here for x-amount of years, doesn't necessarily give them the same rights as a Citizen that was born here. If this was the case, then there would be no need for Citizenship here. Citizenship entitles you the right to vote, have your voice heard, how your money is being spent, a passport and other things, and if you would like those some entitlements then go ahead and become a Citizen. |
I guess you're not thinking outside the box - also I don't expect citizens to agree with a permanent resident, oh well.. It's not like I'm trying to take away something from you, I'm just suggesting that certain rights could be extended to us as well
You can't just go ahead and become a citizen - it's a lengthy process, but I'm on my way! When I just became landed, voting was the last thing on my mind, but 2 years down the road and I'm really getting more and more informed about the local politics (as I'm sure, other people are as well) |
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| Abercrombie |
TRANCEADDICT....
... changing the world, one immigrant at a time. |
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| Jayx1 |
| quote: | Originally posted by StereoPrincess
that's cuz you are supposed to be on the street car. lol. |
Street car is painfully slow. Thats why im always trying to drive around them.
The smart way to keep streetcars TBH would be to make streets one way and put a right of way on the right side of the street. This would be way more efficient safer. Also would be a less obstructive form of construction. Having said this though, a bus works just as well and i think we should have more one way streets regardless. |
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| Jayx1 |
| incredible that people expect to have the same rights as a citizen without making the commitment to become one. It boggles my mind how entitled people feel they are. |
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| Jayx1 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Abercrombie
TRANCEADDICT....
... changing the world, one immigrant at a time. |
apparently immigrant is now politically incorrect so im told.
The chattering class has decreed it so. |
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| StereoPrincess |
| quote: | Originally posted by VDub
Cause I was a kid. What did I know...
When I turned 18, i guess I was just used to it and never bothered.
But now that I'm traveling more, it's turning into a pain.... |
but didn't your parents deal with that?
that's what happened with my citizen ship. i was a kid, and i don't even think i had to write the test. |
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| FunkyCrew |
| quote: | Originally posted by Jayx1
incredible that people expect to have the same rights as a citizen without making the commitment to become one. |
what? |
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| The Potter |
| quote: | Originally posted by FunkyCrew
what? |
Quite miraculously, with Jay, we somehow seemed to have ended up back at square one :)
Firstly, how do you know that they have not made a commitment to Canada, and to becoming a citizen? If the evidence that you are citing is that a person only holds a permanent resident card, well that is one of the very citizenship stages that anyone who is committed to settling in Canada has to go through. It is unreasonable for there to be a delay in at least some partial voting rights being granted, when there is no comparable delay in permanent residents having to pay taxes. In the context of a capitalist market, the equivalent of voting in municipal elections and choosing between local candidates, is analagous to shopping around in a mall; however, in this instance, the shoppers (permanent residents) are being forced to buy from a shop (accept a candidate) chosen by some complete strangers (other voters)! This seems pretty absurd.
Since becoming a citizen is a gradual process that takes about 4 years, it would surely be more logical and reasonable for voting rights to accrue to an individual in a similarly gradual/staggered/incremental manner and process. In business, it is called the 'Matching Principle': you match up the cost (paying taxes) with the benefit (a say in who manages your money) - e.g., voting in municipal elections after 1 year; provincial after 2; national after 4.
The sense of entitlement that you say people feel is perfectly understandable; if they are paying for something, they should be able to shop around for the best person to administer that money. You use the word 'entitled' as though these taxpayers are sponging off the state.
Do not worry, Jay, no-one is saying that permanent residents should have all the same rights as citizens, as soon as they land, just that the process by which these rights are conferred should be changed. At the moment, one day you are not worthy of having a say over how 4-years-worth of your tax dollars are spent, but after 4 years + 1 day, you miraculously are. It is pretty undemocratic if one day's worth of taxes somehow confers more power than 4 years of accumulated tax payments. |
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| smuncky |
| it just occured to me. everyone who's not a citizen is riding the damn gravy train. |
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