|
this isn't chill-out material. serious stuff here, guys (pg. 5)
|
View this Thread in Original format
| Comrade Stalin |
| quote: | Originally posted by LiquidX
Don't forget that the "Christian" world is divided in many beliefs and interpretations of the Bible.. nevertheless, most major Christian denominations do fall into that category. In the same tone, you would add muslim, judaism, and every other major religion under 1 ore more of the above mentioned. |
I'm sure there are plenty of Christians who do believe in evolution, etc. But the loudest ones sure don't. But honestly, having grown up Christian, going to church every Sunday at a non-denominational mega-church, and graduating from a Methodist private school, even they espouse beliefs that today I consider ludicrous. As for those Jews, Muslims, etc., they're all going to hell, right? Thanks but no thanks to such a closed off belief system. |
|
|
| Arbiter |
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
I think this is a fairly interesting argument regarding jesus’ existence (hey Lira, I found it!). |
What I find unpersuasive about Renegade's argument is that the alternative to Jesus' existence--i.e., that he was "invented"--need not be the sort of planned, conscious authorship that you see in, for example, Scientology. Rather, I think what the evidence suggests is that Jesus neither existed as a specific, individual, and identifiable historical figure, nor was the organized creation of a single individual or small group of individuals.
Instead, I think that the process of Jesus' "invention" was a largely collective phenomenon consisting of the primarily oral telling and retelling of varied and inconsistent accounts of events, some of which may be referable to lives of specific individuals, others of which may have been the original "contributions" of now-anonymous storytellers, and others of which may have consisted of synthesis, readaptation, and recasting of the story with preexisting local myths over a period of decades.
The gospels, to me, are (largely unsuccessful) attempts to reconcile these varying and inconsistent accounts, not an attempt to draft Jesus as a mythological character to begin with. Indeed, the authors of later gospels themselves may have, and perhaps likely, falsely believed in the existence of a historical Jesus. Thus it is unsurprising that they agree on certain details that were likely simply copied from earlier accounts. Likewise, it is unsurprising that the gospel's theological claims are as varied as the oral myths upon which they were based.
If Jesus existed, or if the character were concocted in an organized, methodical way, then there would likely be more consistency in the accounts of the gospels. But to the extent that the gospels are evidence of anything, what they suggest to me is not several distorted accounts of the life of a single historical figure, but rather an attempt after the fact to reconcile varying and inconsistent mythologies of Jesus that had already developed. And although there are undoubtedly real acts by real people which were somewhere along the way incorporated into the story of "Jesus," I think it's unlikely that there is any one historical individual to which they can so overwhelmingly and unequivocally be traced as to say he "was Jesus." |
|
|
| pkcRAISTLIN |
| quote: | Originally posted by Arbiter
What I find unpersuasive about Renegade's argument is that the alternative to Jesus' existence--i.e., that he was "invented"--need not be the sort of planned, conscious authorship that you see in, for example, Scientology. Rather, I think what the evidence suggests is that Jesus neither existed as a specific, individual, and identifiable historical figure, nor was the organized creation of a single individual or small group of individuals.
Instead, I think that the process of Jesus' "invention" was a largely collective phenomenon consisting of the primarily oral telling and retelling of varied and inconsistent accounts of events, some of which may be referable to lives of specific individuals, others of which may have been the original "contributions" of now-anonymous storytellers, and others of which may have consisted of synthesis, readaptation, and recasting of the story with preexisting local myths over a period of decades.
The gospels, to me, are (largely unsuccessful) attempts to reconcile these varying and inconsistent accounts, not an attempt to draft Jesus as a mythological character to begin with. Indeed, the authors of later gospels themselves may have, and perhaps likely, falsely believed in the existence of a historical Jesus. Thus it is unsurprising that they agree on certain details that were likely simply copied from earlier accounts. Likewise, it is unsurprising that the gospel's theological claims are as varied as the oral myths upon which they were based.
If Jesus existed, or if the character were concocted in an organized, methodical way, then there would likely be more consistency in the accounts of the gospels. But to the extent that the gospels are evidence of anything, what they suggest to me is not several distorted accounts of the life of a single historical figure, but rather an attempt after the fact to reconcile varying and inconsistent mythologies of Jesus that had already developed. And although there are undoubtedly real acts by real people which were somewhere along the way incorporated into the story of "Jesus," I think it's unlikely that there is any one historical individual to which they can so overwhelmingly and unequivocally be traced as to say he "was Jesus." |
Well, im definitely not one to argue for jesus’ existence (the only books I’ve read since adulthood have been genesis & revelations), I just think renegade’s reasoning is interesting and plausible. |
|
|
| Settimo |
| don't look to god for salvation, "he" won't save you..."heaven" is the wrong place to look, people don't understand the concept of humans as gods. sure the world may all go boom soon, it may not, i'm not gonna waste my time worrying about it, i'd rather live in the present day and send out positive energy, not judging anyone, being good...i don't need the bible or jesus to tell me what a god is and how to be a good person. religion is the anti christ...:whip: |
|
|
| Capitalizt |
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
Well, im definitely not one to argue for jesus’ existence (the only books I’ve read since adulthood have been genesis & revelations), I just think renegade’s reasoning is interesting and plausible. |
The 7-headed dragon in revelations is totally gonna kick your ass for not believing. |
|
|
| pkcRAISTLIN |
| quote: | Originally posted by Capitalizt
The 7-headed dragon in revelations is totally gonna kick your ass for not believing. |
I love revelations. There should be more religious apocalypse movies (good ones). |
|
|
| Arbiter |
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
Well, im definitely not one to argue for jesus’ existence (the only books I’ve read since adulthood have been genesis & revelations), I just think renegade’s reasoning is interesting and plausible. |
I do think that it's an issue where the evidence presents a close enough case that people could reasonably disagree. |
|
|
| Comrade Stalin |
| Hilarious how the original poster has suddenly vanished...:stongue: :stongue: |
|
|
| sixth seal |
| quote: | Originally posted by Comrade Stalin
Hilarious how the original poster has suddenly vanished...:stongue: :stongue: |
nope, still here. just observing everyone's posts from a distance.
i'll tell you what is hilarious, though: watching some of you try to provoke me with your words. but sorry, not gonna take your bait.
the words in the original post i believe will resonate with those who they were meant to resonate with, and be utterly repulsive to those who it was meant to be utterly repulsive.
peace |
|
|
| pkcRAISTLIN |
| quote: | Originally posted by sixth seal
the words in the original post i believe will resonate with those who they were meant to resonate with, and be utterly repulsive to those who it was meant to be utterly repulsive.
peace |
your words resonated with nobody. |
|
|
| MSZ |
| quote: | Originally posted by Settimo
don't look to god for salvation, "he" won't save you..."heaven" is the wrong place to look, people don't understand the concept of humans as gods. sure the world may all go boom soon, it may not, i'm not gonna waste my time worrying about it, i'd rather live in the present day and send out positive energy, not judging anyone, being good...i don't need the bible or jesus to tell me what a god is and how to be a good person. religion is the anti christ...:whip: |
this, no point of being depressing and emo towards others. live life positively, instantaneously; try to achieve what you want in said timeframe. if you need help with depression, seek it. |
|
|
| Comrade Stalin |
| quote: | Originally posted by sixth seal
nope, still here. just observing everyone's posts from a distance.
i'll tell you what is hilarious, though: watching some of you try to provoke me with your words. but sorry, not gonna take your bait.
the words in the original post i believe will resonate with those who they were meant to resonate with, and be utterly repulsive to those who it was meant to be utterly repulsive.
peace |
Well that's good. Are you not well-versed in Christian apologetics? If you hadn't noticed, you've stirred up a hornet's nest...:p |
|
|
|
|
