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Egypt Situation (pg. 11)
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| hardcore trancer |
| quote: | Originally posted by EgosXII
This is such a ridiculous idea. Democracy as you experience it is NOT democracy. Look at the founding of any true democracy and there is violence and revolution. the people have to DEMAND power, and freedom before they deserve it, and before its real. The kind of setup the US has? Nobody even votes, and when they do, what are they voting for? Once every four years, for a 'leader/dictator' who makes every decision for them.
Then look at Egypt. The people have taken to the streets, and taken the state in their own hands. They are directly controlling the direction they want their country to go in.
That is democracy. Don't be so naive and PC- you don't want any violence? You obviously know nothing about history or politics, and definitely know nothing about the foundations of democracy. Its horrible how many people boast about democracy and freedom, but have no idea about what it is, and what it costs. |
Perfectly explained.:) |
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| hardcore trancer |
I've had this same conversation at least three times today. People seem to have forgotten what Democracy really is. What the US has done to Iraq and Afghanistan IS NOT Democracy. You can’t force your way of Democracy into others. It will not work specially in the Middle East.
All I've heard today is nothing but negative views towards what has happened in Egypt. Most people are assuming the worst case scenario for Egypt with zero evidence to support their views. It is sad tbh.. |
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| UWM |
| quote: | Originally posted by EgosXII
This is such a ridiculous idea. Democracy as you experience it is NOT democracy. Look at the founding of any true democracy and there is violence and revolution. the people have to DEMAND power, and freedom before they deserve it, and before its real. The kind of setup the US has? Nobody even votes, and when they do, what are they voting for? Once every four years, for a 'leader/dictator' who makes every decision for them.
Then look at Egypt. The people have taken to the streets, and taken the state in their own hands. They are directly controlling the direction they want their country to go in.
That is democracy. Don't be so naive and PC- you don't want any violence? You obviously know nothing about history or politics, and definitely know nothing about the foundations of democracy. Its horrible how many people boast about democracy and freedom, but have no idea about what it is, and what it costs. |
good post. |
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| EgosXII |
| quote: | Originally posted by hardcore trancer
I've had this same conversation at least three times today. People seem to have forgotten what Democracy really is. What the US has done to Iraq and Afghanistan IS NOT Democracy. You can’t force your way of Democracy into others. It will not work specially in the Middle East.
All I've heard today is nothing but negative views towards what has happened in Egypt. Most people are assuming the worst case scenario for Egypt with zero evidence to support their views. It is sad tbh.. |
+1 its really despicable! people have no concept of any historical or social facts, apart from what THEY'VE experienced (capitalism and luxury usually).
The biggest part of US international relations is that they force democracy, or force people to be free, a complete paradox in terms.
freedom has to come from the people, and it has to uninterupted if its going to work at all. its not a switch that the US army, or the US spin-doctors can switch in a day (as they seem to think it is), its a process which takes years, and has to come from the people who it actually effects!
in my opinion its amazing what's happened! Its the first time something like it has happened in my lifetime (that i can recall), and it really is exciting! Seeing real democracy at work isn't necessarily pretty, but it gives me hope that at least some people in the world aren't entirely apathetic and ignorant of their rights, and their governments wrongs. |
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| The17sss |
| quote: | Originally posted by EgosXII
Then look at Egypt. The people have taken to the streets, and taken the state in their own hands. They are directly controlling the direction they want their country to go in. |
A protest crowd of 250,000 +/- in a country with a population of 80 million (90% of them men) is really representative of "the people"? That's what, less than 1% of the population?
Where's the same jubilation for the organic bubbling up of protest for the Tea Party I wonder... you know, considering it's now en vogue to have a few hundred thousand-plus protest the direction of the country and demand accountability from its leader. |
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| The17sss |
| quote: | Originally posted by EgosXII
its amazing what's happened! Its the first time something like it has happened in my lifetime (that i can recall), and it really is exciting! Seeing real democracy at work isn't necessarily pretty, but it gives me hope that at least some people in the world aren't entirely apathetic and ignorant of their rights, and their governments wrongs. |
lol WHAT!? Last year, the Iranian people tried the same... remember? ;)
Only that time, Obama "didn't want to meddle in the affairs of other countries" and blew a major opportunity to back a true democratic movement. Have you forgotten already? |
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| Zyklon_Jay |
| and i thought i was hardheaded for buying into mein kampf. |
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| EgosXII |
| quote: | Originally posted by The17sss
A protest crowd of 250,000 +/- in a country with a population of 80 million (90% of them men) is really representative of "the people"? That's what, less than 1% of the population?
Where's the same jubilation for the organic bubbling up of protest for the Tea Party I wonder... you know, considering it's now en vogue to have a few hundred thousand-plus protest the direction of the country and demand accountability from its leader. |
I feel like what's happened in Egypt is fairly different than the tea party movement- only my opinion of course, but just because they have protests in common doesn't mean they're really related on a significant level- most importantly: What did they accomplish?
good point about the numbers involved, but the rest of the population now gains a voice, because of the actions of a minority:
how many people wrote the completely undemocratic american constitution? THey were all unelected, unsupported, rich white dudes. It was a starting point though, wasn't it?
| quote: | Originally posted by The17sss
lol WHAT!? Last year, the Iranian people tried the same... remember? ;)
Only that time, Obama "didn't want to meddle in the affairs of other countries" and blew a major opportunity to back a true democratic movement. Have you forgotten already? |
results were a bit different weren't they? :p
I also don't mean to say similar things0 havn't happened (protests, and contests to government): similar things are constantly happening. I just think Egypt is fairly different, in both its methods, and its outcome (so far at least)- Of course, i don't know everything about middle eastern, or 'developing country' politics in general so i might be wrong, or have missed important events :) |
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| EgosXII |
| quote: | Originally posted by The17sss
Only that time, Obama "didn't want to meddle in the affairs of other countries" and blew a major opportunity to back a true democratic movement. Have you forgotten already? |
also, the US has never cared about democracy in other countries: They've always preferred dealing with monarchs, ESPECIALLY in the middle east.
It's lovely spouting democracy to the press, but whenever a democratic government comes to power there's a chance a 'wrong person' will be elected, and the US won't have any of that. They like leaders they can set up long relations with.
that went down in Iran is largely because of US meddling (or lack of) during the Cold War. Do you know why they're considered a 'terrorist state' by the US? |
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| Nrg2Nfinit |
| quote: | Originally posted by The17sss
A protest crowd of 250,000 +/- in a country with a population of 80 million (90% of them men) is really representative of "the people"? That's what, less than 1% of the population?
Where's the same jubilation for the organic bubbling up of protest for the Tea Party I wonder... you know, considering it's now en vogue to have a few hundred thousand-plus protest the direction of the country and demand accountability from its leader. |
and your poll based on a sample size of 1000 (which didnt discriminate betweeen rural and urban areas [you're going to ask the undeducated farmer what he thinks and hold his political option at equal weight to a student/ businessman who is actually more likely to vote]) is justifiable?
http://pewglobal.org/files/2010/12/...mber-2-2010.pdf
theres your data.
and 250,000. From what i heard it was in the millions, and not a sign of extremism. The people wouldnt let a 30 year dictator get his way, what makes you think they will be brainwashed by a fundementalist? |
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| Nrg2Nfinit |
| quote: | Originally posted by Lews
Why are you singling me out? I'm a nice person, I'm not like Kevin :( |
sorry lews didnt mean to single you out there.. don't take it to heart, we are both capitalists in the end (albeit you are a more considerate one). |
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| bas |
| quote: | Originally posted by Nrg2Nfinit
and your poll based on a sample size of 1000 (which didnt discriminate betweeen rural and urban areas [you're going to ask the undeducated farmer what he thinks and hold his political option at equal weight to a student/ businessman who is actually more likely to vote]) is justifiable?
http://pewglobal.org/files/2010/12/...mber-2-2010.pdf
theres your data.
and 250,000. From what i heard it was in the millions, and not a sign of extremism. The people wouldnt let a 30 year dictator get his way, what makes you think they will be brainwashed by a fundementalist? |
It was in the millions, Fox News reported it in the hundred thousands though. *guess what Kevin watches* |
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