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Egypt Situation (pg. 15)
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| EddieZilker |
| quote: | | Originally posted by The17sss ..."useful idiot"... |
It's ironic how that phrase is being used, currently, given its original context. |
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| Joss Weatherby |
lol Kevin is suffering from the "oh democracy someplace else might not mean they love the US" realization syndrome.
Its like when people freaked out over the Palestinians electing Hamas... Who'd you think they'd elect, the people who AREN'T working the hardest to eradicate the people that took over their homeland?
Jesus you neo-cons are dense as . Democracy means the people get to choose, and the people often go "hey the US!"
So here you go Kevin, how about you just come out and say it, because its the truth: "we should support the forms of government and leaders that work best to promote our interests and goals in regions of strategic interest."
Sometimes democracy someplace else doesn't work in the favor of the US.
But if you want to take your godly George W. Bush's loony bin banner of "Spreading Democracy" then you can't fault Obama for any of this, cause he is allowing that to happen. |
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| Joss Weatherby |
Also Kevin, I am keeping note of how much you were going "GOD DAMN IT, GOD GOD DAMN IT BRAH BRAH BRAH OBAMA NEEDS TO TAKE CARE OF THIS GHADFI FELLA RIGHT NOW BRAH BRAH BRAH!"
That is so when in a few months or a year or whenever it happens you can't come back and be like "Obama supported anti-americans that took over Libya" cause you are mr. rush-the--in-there-and-help-whoever-the--is-fighting-ghdafi. |
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| Nrg2Nfinit |
| quote: | Originally posted by EddieZilker
It's ironic how that phrase is being used, currently, given its original context. |
yeah here's some fuel to his fire.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wael_Ghonim |
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| Zharen |
| Toppling governments is SRS BZNSS |
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| The17sss |
| quote: | Originally posted by Nrg2Nfinit
you told me what? |
Well, you said this was the best thing that could have happened to Egypt, to which I said "that remains to be seen". You also said "The people wouldnt let a 30 year dictator get his way, what makes you think they will be brainwashed by a fundementalist?" How's that working out, now that "the people" who began the revolution for the right reasons are out in the cold? You also told Lira my cautions were nothing more than "unjustified fear mongering". How's that working out (especially for the women protestors subjected to virginity inspections)? You also said you haven't heard anything about "religious rule"... yet we learn the MB (obviously not secular) has already struck a deal with the military for joint rule. What I told you was simple: your jubilant optimism over what was happening shouldn't be so optimistic. As events unfold, we are seeing that I was right and you were not.
| quote: | | The only way this is going to work is if the people get to vote. There is no "chance". People are people, no matter what their race ethnicity, religion (albeit relgion is the dumbest thing) or culture. Thats what freedom is about. There is no chance/collective punishment etc. Each person is responsible for his or hers own action. You cannot gather all the jews and gas them because they are hoarding the german wealth; you cannot jail all blacks because a few are prone to theivery, rape, drugs and toonie tuesdays at kfc; you cannot take away a whole countires freedom because of a couple of islolated incidents and a fear that democratic elections "may" not go the way you wanted. |
:wtf: :stongue:
| quote: | You believe in the free markets, why not a free people? I don't understand what you mean when you say "see i told you so?" as if there was actually another feasible alternative to have a government that wasn't selected by the people of that country. Pathetic.
Completely riduculous argument with absolutley no viable thesis kevin. |
I don't get any of the above quote. What the are you talking about man? "See I told you so" that your view of the revolution through rosey colored lenses so quickly was foolish. Of course I believe in freedom, and I understand what it is. How has anything I said translate into me not believing in it? I was telling you what was happening there now as reported in the NY Times article EXPLAINING HOW COMMON FREEDOMS ARE ALREADY BEING CUT SHORT! Like these:
| quote: | | “We are all worried,” said Amr Koura, 55, a television producer, reflecting the opinions of the secular minority. “The young people have no control of the revolution anymore. It was evident in the last few weeks when you saw a lot of bearded people taking charge. The youth are gone.” |
| quote: | | On Wednesday, the military council endorsed a plan to outlaw demonstrations and sit-ins. Then, a few hours later, the public prosecutor announced that the former interior minister and other security officials would be charged in the killings of hundreds during the protests. |
W... wh... who's advocating the stripping of freedom... ME?? Dude, the current people in charge are now the military and the Muslem Brotherhood- and they are enacting the laws stamping out freedom of expression. The elections haven't happened yet so we can't say what things will be like until that point. But judging by how things are shaping up now, I would say not so good.
| quote: | Originally posted by Joss Weatherby
Also Kevin, I am keeping note of how much you were going "GOD DAMN IT, GOD GOD DAMN IT BRAH BRAH BRAH OBAMA NEEDS TO TAKE CARE OF THIS GHADFI FELLA RIGHT NOW BRAH BRAH BRAH!"
That is so when in a few months or a year or whenever it happens you can't come back and be like "Obama supported anti-americans that took over Libya" cause you are mr. rush-the--in-there-and-help-whoever-the--is-fighting-ghdafi. |
First of all, please reference a single time I pushed for Obama to go guns-a-blazin, no holds barred, into Tripoli and take care of Ghaddafi. Second of all, context: my point with Libya was not to simply "rush the in there"; it was that if Obama's policy was that "Ghadaffi must go" and saving the civilians from his wrath was the goal, then ing do it already, rather than let 31 days pass where Ghadaffi systematically beat down the opposition, murdering hundreds of them. I said, "If you want to go in, fine. If not, that's fine too. but make a goddamn decision."
Lastly, if Egypt is an important strategic ally of the United States, which they have been for decades, then yes it is in our national interest to support the outcome that represents our interests. By your rationale, if "the people" in country X wanted to form an anti U.S. government with the stated goal of destroying our country and murdering as many Americans as possible, then by god, that's what the people want and we should respect and support that. You are such a ing douchebag loser. I hope you get hit by a ing Mack truck and end up in a wheelchair, then realize you contracted AIDS while receiving blood at the hospital. |
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| Nrg2Nfinit |
| quote: | Originally posted by The17sss
Well, you said this was the best thing that could have happened to Egypt, to which I said "that remains to be seen". You also said "The people wouldnt let a 30 year dictator get his way, what makes you think they will be brainwashed by a fundementalist?" How's that working out, now that "the people" who began the revolution for the right reasons are out in the cold? You also told Lira my cautions were nothing more than "unjustified fear mongering". How's that working out (especially for the women protestors subjected to virginity inspections)? You also said you haven't heard anything about "religious rule"... yet we learn the MB (obviously not secular) has already struck a deal with the military for joint rule. What I told you was simple: your jubilant optimism over what was happening shouldn't be so optimistic. As events unfold, we are seeing that I was right and you were not.
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regardless i stand by my comment. There is no way a 30 year dictatorial rule is justifiable. Clearly you are submersed in the fear mongering and shooting at a 1 case senario to jumble up the whole issue into a justification of your point.
So again you're being presumptuous before the elections have started. I put this question to you, which you have not answered yet: what would be the alternative? To have a autocratic rule which you've seen first hand the results of trying to break out of it? A president who hoards the equivalent of 15% of the countries gdp to himself?
The muslim brotherhood was the lead opposition party after the national democratic party, which has predominantly been ousted. It is only logical that they would be part of the coalition government. It's not a picture perfect senario, i hate to see them in the picture at all, but like it or not they are a political party with some backing.
I would say, again, wait til elections to see what happens next. The people have the right to choose their government and that won't happen until we see elections.
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I don't get any of the above quote. What the are you talking about man? "See I told you so" that your view of the revolution through rosey colored lenses so quickly was foolish. Of course I believe in freedom, and I understand what it is. How has anything I said translate into me not believing in it? I was telling you what was happening there now as reported in the NY Times article EXPLAINING HOW COMMON FREEDOMS ARE ALREADY BEING CUT SHORT! Like these:
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Yeah you're argument is analogus to the creationist who says "where is the transitional fossil?" Sure its not a picture perfect senario, but the people deserve their freedom to choose who they want elected, and that has not happend yet and here you are ramming down the i told you so ideology which only concedes to the fact that you think that they "don't" deserve their freedom to choose.
| quote: |
W... wh... who's advocating the stripping of freedom... ME?? Dude, the current people in charge are now the military and the Muslem Brotherhood- and they are enacting the laws stamping out freedom of expression. The elections haven't happened yet so we can't say what things will be like until that point. But judging by how things are shaping up now, I would say not so good.
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INTERIM GOVERNMENT. Again there have been no elections yet. Yes not a picture perfect senario, am totally against religion being any part of politics, but that should not trump the fact that the people of egypt have teh right to choose. This hasn't occured yet, so save your "i told you so" comments until it does and the people had no say in who runs the country. |
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| The17sss |
| quote: | Originally posted by Nrg2Nfinit
regardless i stand by my comment. There is no way a 30 year dictatorial rule is justifiable. Clearly you are submersed in the fear mongering and shooting at a 1 case senario to jumble up the whole issue into a justification of your point.
So again you're being presumptuous before the elections have started. I put this question to you, which you have not answered yet: what would be the alternative? To have a autocratic rule which you've seen first hand the results of trying to break out of it? A president who hoards the equivalent of 15% of the countries gdp to himself? |
I agree that a 30 year dictatorial rule is not justifiable; totally on the same page as you there. Unfortunately we don't get the beauty of several options with some of them being good ones. Ideally, of course I would love to see a true movement of democracy, secular in nature, where the people really do get to experience freedom in the actual meaning of the word.
| quote: | The muslim brotherhood was the lead opposition party after the national democratic party, which has predominantly been ousted. It is only logical that they would be part of the coalition government. It's not a picture perfect senario, i hate to see them in the picture at all, but like it or not they are a political party with some backing.
I would say, again, wait til elections to see what happens next. The people have the right to choose their government and that won't happen until we see elections. |
Righton. I'm with you here too. Just feeling a little more of a foreboding sense of what's to come in comparison I guess.
| quote: | | Yeah you're argument is analogus to the creationist who says "where is the transitional fossil?" Sure its not a picture perfect senario, but the people deserve their freedom to choose who they want elected, and that has not happend yet and here you are ramming down the i told you so ideology which only concedes to the fact that you think that they "don't" deserve their freedom to choose. |
You must be reading me wrong because this is incorrect; I never once said or felt like the people don't deserve the freedom to choose. I'm discouraged over the fact that the young people who started this thing for the right reasons have been swept aside already, and the vacuum has been filled by anything but proponents of freedom.
| quote: | | INTERIM GOVERNMENT. Again there have been no elections yet. Yes not a picture perfect senario, am totally against religion being any part of politics, but that should not trump the fact that the people of egypt have teh right to choose. This hasn't occured yet, so save your "i told you so" comments until it does and the people had no say in who runs the country. |
fair enough. I assume we'll continue this discussion after that happens. |
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| Zharen |
More religious infighting from Egypt
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/...t_n_859110.html
| quote: |
CAIRO -- Hundreds of Christians and Muslims hurled stones at each other in downtown Cairo on Sunday, hours after Muslim mobs set fire to a church and a Christian-owned apartment building in a frenzy of violence that killed 12 people and injured more than 200.
The deepening religious violence in military-ruled Egypt is exacerbating the lawlessness and disorder of the country's bumpy transition to democracy after three decades of autocratic rule under former President Hosni Mubarak was brought to an end in February.
Muslim youths attacked a large crowd of Coptic Christian protesters marching from the headquarters of Egypt's general prosecutor to the state television building overlooking the Nile, said Christian activist Bishoy Tamri. TV images showed both sides furiously throwing stones, including one Christian who held a large wooden cross in one hand while flinging rocks with another.
Scores were injured, but an army unit securing the TV building did nothing to stop the violence, Tamri said.
Hours earlier, mobs of ultraconservative Muslims attacked the Virgin Mary Church in the slum of Imbaba on the opposite side of the Nile. The attack was fueled by rumors that a Christian woman married to a Muslim man had been abducted by the church. Residents said a separate mob of youths armed with knives and machetes attacked an apartment building several blocks away with firebombs.
"People were scared to come near them," said resident Adel Mohammed, 29, who lives near the Virgin Mary Church. "They looked scary. They threw their firebombs at the church and set parts of it ablaze."
The military deployed armored vehicles and dozens of troop carriers to cordon off a main street leading to the area. They halted traffic and turned away pedestrians. Men, women and children watching from balconies took photos with mobile phones and cheered the troops.
Islamic clerics denounced the violence, sounding alarm bells at the escalating tension during the transitional period following Mubarak's Feb. 11 ouster by a popular uprising.
"These events do not benefit either Muslim or Copts," Ahmed al-Tayyeb, the sheik of al-Azhar, told the daily Al-Ahram.
Interfaith relationships are taboo in Egypt, where the Muslim majority and sizable Christian minority are both largely conservative. Such relationships are often the source of deadly clashes between the faiths.
During the 18-day uprising that ousted Mubarak, there was a rare spirit of brotherhood between Muslims and Christians. Each group protected the other during prayer sessions in Cairo's Tahrir Square, the epicenter of the revolution.
But in the months that followed, there has been a sharp rise in sectarian tensions, fueled in part by a movement of ultraconservative Muslims known as Salafis who have become more active in Egypt. |
Looks like it's going to be a tough road for democracy in Egypt. |
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| FuzzQi |
| quote: | Originally posted by Trance Nutter
chop bas's head on there. |
I see what you did there, that would make him "the Egypt Situation" |
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| FuzzQi |
:wtf: |
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