|
Egypt Situation (pg. 13)
|
View this Thread in Original format
| EgosXII |
| quote: | Originally posted by Halcyon+On+On
Please give us an example of a "true" democracy. Or a "true" communism. Or a "true" dictatorship. No actual execution of governance has ever lived up to the textbook ideals, despite the torrents of propagandist takeovers and first-glance history assessments.
Like everything else, the result is a competition between separate entities. More rights for the government mean less rights for the people. More rights for the people mean less rights for corporations, etc. The people may DEMAND some sort of "freedom" for a time, but they will be all too eager to hand it over (leave it open) for another hierarchy to install itself and designate rights, re-establish jurisprudence, etc.
Freedom, as you suppose it, does not exist. Not in life. |
they freely took power from the government. that is what i was talking about, so I think it might exist :p
edit: realised i completely ignored the bulk of this:
There of course aren't any true Isms. I was clearly being hyperbolic, BUT given there are no epitomes, you can extend the 'closest thing' to the truth to be the champion- I was really using the idea of a perfect democracy to juxtapose the real nature of democracy in many liberal western states- you are correct to point out that, without the perfect example existing the example may be flawed though :)
Democracy is not anarchy, as you of course know: Freedom in democracy has never been an absolute value- At the heart of most liberal democracies is Social Contract theory- people being entirely free, and give up certain freedoms to government in order to participate in society. Nobody would disagree with your second paragraph: I most definitely was not. Locke (US constitution pretty much founded off him) said that citizens have a right to take government back into their own hands any time the people's rights are being violated to an extent where they no longer have the use of their freedom. In my opinion this is why Egypt's actions are extremely democratic, and a good representation of real democracy. The people are taking control of who leads them. They are not demolishing government (anarchy, similar to french revolution), then rebuilding from nothing, or vague ideals: They are removing the cancer from their society. Of course another government will take it's place, but it will be one the people approve of, and are willing to give their freedom away to-- that's democracy in a liberal sense; and crucially imo: They didn't get it because the US told them to do it this way, they did it organically- the other CRUCIAl tenent of democracy imo.
| quote: | There is someone in control? Who? "The people"? Like they are some sort of hive-brain collective that just motions its sovereignty with ease?
Someone has to organize elections to play out this "democracy"- who will elect them for that job?
Democracy is an experiment that takes a government establishment to grant a voice to the clamoring throngs of an uneducated majority so that they can grant their government the ability to grant them their voice. It's tautology. As Franklin put it, "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch." There's a second, more important, half to that quote, but it's rather a can of worms. |
they currently have a military body organising it i believe: Of course there isn't one voice of the people, but they clearly had one main goal, with the rest being open for discussion. they achieved the one main goal... now they sort out the rest-
of course democracy is an experiment. its different in every single country, because they all have to work a similar system into different contextual realities: The only unifying element usually is a belief in the people's right to choose government. Egyptians have decisively done so.
| quote: | Everything is violence. What price have you paid for your supposed freedom?
My point is that Egypt, right now, is just a mess of idealistic youths frolicking about amidst the intoxication of usurping one's authoritative canopy. They swing among the branches - and indeed their malign alpha has been ousted - but now they attract only the sympathy of nations that are sold upon the idea of 'freedom' being some sort of ideal, and democracy being the most expedient route to assuring that distribution. We are inundated with this news because when you sell the notion of freedom to people -between brief commercial breaks- they are free to choose which air freshener looks the best or which vehicle tires smell the best, etc. The misdirection of capitalistic enterprise corrals people into their consumer pens, their idealistic tribes, and it is not difficult at all to understand why this entire revolt has been a feeding frenzy for media conglomerates looking to infect their self-perpetuating egos. |
it seems like you're not entirely disagreeing with me: If you are, be more specific, if not: High five??
I think where they are is a great place to start: I don't think the Egyptians are wanting to copy anyone's idealist notions (they're idealist, but they're not basing their idealism off of american commercials, like the americans do): I think they have actually been through the conflict which creates democratic ideals- of course they will be idealists on a certain level, but the experiences they've been through are far different than what the established democratic citizens will ever experience: they've experienced the true breeding ground of democracy: Turmoil. As i said, look at the founding on democracies: US, France etc. I think Egypt's happy to finally have options, and the way they handled the take over makes me feel fairly positive about possible outcomes :)
obviously i don't know what's going to happen: I was mostly attacking the claim that democracy shouldn't come from conflict. That is stupid.
| quote: | | To believe the Egyptian people are now free is to be fooled. The "cost" will be spread out amongst several payments. But that's just life as we know it, even if we'd rather be "naive and PC". |
cost-benefit surely. They're in a position you and i will never experience, and probably coudln't really imagine: Obviously there's room for failure, but there always in when attempting big gains |
|
|
| EgosXII |
| ^ that is ing awesome :o |
|
|
| EddieZilker |
I like how it shows the US united with the Egyptians in their revolution.
:gsmile: |
|
|
| EgosXII |
| quote: | Originally posted by EddieZilker
I like how it shows the US united with the Egyptians in their revolution.
:gsmile: |
the US IS mubarak :stongue: |
|
|
| EddieZilker |
| quote: | Originally posted by EgosXII
the US IS mubarak :stongue: |
Then how do you explain US tanks on the streets?
WITH the protesters! :toothless |
|
|
| Nrg2Nfinit |
| i think im going to agree with eddie here. see the artist's interpretation |
|
|
| EgosXII |
| quote: | Originally posted by EddieZilker
Then how do you explain US tanks on the streets?
WITH the protesters! :toothless |
ahh K- I wasn't laughingly disagreeing, I was laughing cause mubarak's head (is that him, or just some random scary f00l) is made entirely out of the flag haha |
|
|
| Trance Nutter |
Why is Freddie Mercury in the middle?
 |
|
|
| Halcyon+On+On |
| Because he wants to break free. |
|
|
|
|
