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Christianity (pg. 29)
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| Moral Hazard |
| quote: | Originally posted by Mattsanity.
Well, I was half-right. The Bible talks about people who took their own lives but there is no direct translation to the word Suicide from the original greek and hebrew bible. It also doesn't say whether the individual goes to heaven or hell, but the accepted theology is that hell is the destination because he or she decided to elevate suicide above Jesus and living for him. |
That isn't the accepted theology at all. It has nothing to do with elevating suicide above living for Jesus. It was once believed (commonly, not by any actual doctrine) that those who commited suicide were hell-bound because killing one's self was a great offence to God and therefore was a sin and in the case of suicide a person would not have opportunity to be absolved of their sins prior to death; moreover, the deceased would be denied Christian burial (no longer the case), which people once believed meant they had no shot at heaven.
It is worth noting that "the Church" (meaning RC & Eastern Orthodoxed) beliefs break suicide up into four catagories; positive direct (taking direct action to end one's own life), positive indirect (taking direct action that inadvertantly results in one's death), negative direct (deliberate failure to maintain one's own life, ie. refusal to seek routine medical care or self-inflicted starvation), and negative indirect (unintentional failure to maintain one's own life through ordinary means or deliberate failure through extrodinary means). Positive direct and Negative direct are considered mortal sins; Negative indirect is considered a transgression or venial sin dependant on circumstances, and Positive indirect is not sinful. Of the three that are considered potentially sinful they are not sins if they are done with "God's consent" although I have no clue under what circumstances God would give you the green light to off yourself.
With regard to what happens to those that kill themselves in a sinful manner the church's views are as follows:
| quote: | Catechism of the Catholic Church - paragraph 2283
"Grave psychological disturbances, anguish, or grave fear of hardship, suffering, or torture can diminish the responsibility of the one committing suicide."
"We should not despair of the eternal salvation of persons who have taken their own lives. By ways known to him alone, God can provide the opportunity for salutary repentance. The Church prays for persons who have taken their own lives." |
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| Mattsanity. |
| ^Are you a christian? |
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| Moral Hazard |
| quote: | Originally posted by Mattsanity.
^Are you a christian? |
That is immaterial to the discussion; however, yes, I am a Roman Catholic. |
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| Mattsanity. |
| It was a random question but I asked because living for Jesus should be the top occupation for a christian, and you disagreed. I guess your right though. |
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| srussell0018 |
| quote: | Originally posted by RJT
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Vijo Morganstein |
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| Moral Hazard |
| quote: | Originally posted by Mattsanity.
It was a random question but I asked because living for Jesus should be the top occupation for a christian, and you disagreed. I guess your right though. |
First; the obligation upon Christians is to take on an apostolic mission; that can take many forms; however, "living for Jesus" is not one of them. You live for you and you glorify God by serving man through the example of Jesus. To be truthful; a blanket "live for Jesus" is so broad and vague that it is meaningless.
Second; what I was objecting to was your claim that the position you went on to advance was "the accepted theology," when it clearly isn't. While there is no single authoritative voice on what Christian doctrine is (owing to the great variety of Christian sects) the largest, oldest, most established, and best resourced authority on Christian doctrine and theology is the Catholic Church which accounts for 1.4-1.5 billion (1.2 billion Roman Catholic, 200-300 million Eastern Orthodox) of the approx 2 billion Christians. So, the Catholics are approx 75% of the Christians out there... that 75% hold the position I posted; subsequently, the position I posted would have to be consided "the accepted theology." So, "the accepted theology" is not that people who kill themselves are punished in hell for eternity because they chose suicide over Jesus as you stated; rather, it is that most forms of suicide are sins against God, God may absolve them of this sin (we don't know, it's up to God), and that we pray that God does absolve them and grant them salvation. I would recommend that in the future, if you are not putting forward the documented position or doctrine of the Catholic Church then you may wish to qualify your statements as being your position/belief, or specify which denomonation of christianity you are stating the position/belief of.
Third; that was not a random question, it was entirely pointed.
Out of interest... what denomonation are you? Clearly, not one of the more mainstream churches. |
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| Halcyon+On+On |
| Do not be distracted by his words, Matt! He's just trying to deceive you! |
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| Moral Hazard |
| quote: | Originally posted by Halcyon+On+On
Do not be distracted by his words, Matt! He's just trying to deceive you! |
My impression is that because I'm not on stage in a stadium sized church with a band, lightshow, etc. there is no danger of him paying any heed to my words.... unless his pastor tells him to. |
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| Halcyon+On+On |
Do you hear how he insults your lovers, Matthew?! KNOW THY DECEIVER'S TRUE NAME - I CAST YOU OUT, CRAIGOPHLES OF THE BLEAK WASTES! BEGONE!
*beats poor people with a holy rug* |
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| Halcyon+On+On |
| Would you consider yourself a true Soldier of God, Mattheugh? |
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| Moral Hazard |
| quote: | Originally posted by Mattsanity.
Presbyterian |
That surprises me, as you sound far more baptist or non-aligned evangelical in your rhetoric (of course now that I notice the Korean flag it makes a little more sense). It really surprises me that you would misrepresent your personal views as being established doctrine or "accepted theology" given that you come from a confessional tradition. |
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