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Feminism (pg. 10)
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| The17sss |
| quote: | Originally posted by Theresa
I'm too tired to respond to you at the moment, but if you re-read everything you wrote, you repeat over and over that women "lose their identity" or their "femininity" or "act like men" etc. and suggest that this is a negative thing aka you take issue with gender role deviance. Go back to your first few responses in the thread. |
Well obviously I don't take issue with "gender role deviance" since I specifically said as much at least 3 times, nor did I suggest it's a negative thing for anyone other than the women who can't sustain romantic/personal relationships due to being workaholics. It's just a fact- not my opinion- that negative consequences befall some women in their personal lives who devote all of their time chasing a career and doing so in an overly masculine manner. Why can't you accept this? |
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| Halcyon+On+On |
| quote: | Originally posted by Theresa
Why do you use the term "hideous"? |
It's a well-known fact that presentation and appearance are the strict provinces of the feminine mystique.
Now, fetch. |
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| ChemEnhanced |
| quote: | Originally posted by Moral Hazard
the powerborkers (men) |
I read that as powerboinkers |
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| Ania_xox |
I am genuinely astounded by a lot of the responses in this thread.
Feminism (as defined principally by the literary pioneering efforts of Mary Wollstonecraft and Betty Friedan who, in my opinion, stand as the beginning and end to any sort of struggle by women to achieve equality) is no longer an overt concern in my world. Maybe because of where I live, how I have been raised, and the endless opportunities that have been thrown my way.
I firmly believe that any real sort of "struggle" on the part of women, in the quest for equality, is over.
Those speaking of women obssessed with "beating" men in the workplace have sadly skewed perceptions, in my opinion. How about the idea of personal achievement? Going for what you want to better your life? Where does having a vs. having a fit into that?
Maybe the fact that I'm 23 allows me to be ignorant to some kind of sorry plight in my gender, because I don't see it.
Career-wise, if I beat 10 women and come out on top - I know it's because I'm skilled, talented and I deserved it.
If I beat 5 women and 5 men - same deal.
If I am able to knock down a 300-pound male, I'll be satisfied with my strength. I'll be satisfied that I was able to knock down someone who weighs 300 pounds; not because this person in question has a ing penis.
These are my initial reactions to this topic. |
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| pkcRAISTLIN |
its 130 here and im a little drunk but i will endeavour to respond tomorrow, after the football of course. go hawks!
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| SYSTEM-J |
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
OMG i said almost exactly that in my dissertation, though more related to postmodern feminism than radical or liberal. postmodern feminism would have to be the biggest waste of time ive ever encountered in political theory. if your idea of feminism is to titilate the intellects of a handful of feminist lecturers, then i think you're kinda missing the point, woman. |
Cixous is a postmodern feminist critic, of the most unintelligible kind. Big mates with Derrida, which should tell you everything.
| quote: | | i never read the female eunuch but i did read greer's follow up, the whole woman. it did a pretty good job imo of being easy to read, wasn't your typical polsci theory textbook or anything. greer s me mostly but still respect some of the views she puts forward. |
Yeah, Greer is actually very accessible, which is why she's practically a feminist celebrity, but I wonder how many people chatting off about feminism in this thread could tell you anything about her views.
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
this is an important point, and one i think most "trendy" femos ignore. the historical division between men and women was natural, insofar as bearing and raising children is natural or lesser physical strength is natural. men came to dominate the public sphere based on these 2 biological distinctions. it wasn't part of some evil patriarchal plot, it was merely the manifestation of differences between the sexes, based purely on biology and its influence in human social evolution. |
I think this is a failure of feminism as a whole. Most feminist theory is so insistent that gender and oppression are social constructs that they try and negate the role of biological difference to a damaging extent. This is especially telling when they come to theorise about the origins of patriarchy. I've read so much spurious feminist writing where they try to get inside a man's mind and talk about men being afraid of women as Other, and so on. For me the answer is much simpler: men are, on average, naturally bigger and stronger than women, and violence is the ultimate trump card in primitive society.
I also think that "patriarchal bias in language" argument is easily the weakest feminist point. There is a massive amount of linguistic bias against left-handedness in almost every part of the world, but that's hardly evidence that southpaws are an oppressed minority who needs social equality. |
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| The17sss |
| quote: | Originally posted by Ania_xox
Those speaking of women obssessed with "beating" men in the workplace have sadly skewed perceptions, in my opinion. How about the idea of personal achievement? Going for what you want to better your life? Where does having a vs. having a fit into that? |
If you're referring to me, how is my perception skewed? I've been in the workplace since you were 14 and it's not a secret that women like this exist. Sure they are striving for personal achievement, but along the way some of them shed their more nurturing qualities... they have to in a dog-eat-dog world clawing their way to the top. Some overcompensate simply due to their own misconceptions of being an oppressed woman and feel the need to become intolerable ball breakers. If that becomes part of their character, it definitely affects their personal lives. In wanting a better life career-wise and professionally, you can't ignore the possibility that in doing so, their personal relationships may be negatively affected. |
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| Moral Hazard |
| quote: | Originally posted by Ania_xox
I am genuinely astounded by a lot of the responses in this thread.
Feminism (as defined principally by the literary pioneering efforts of Mary Wollstonecraft and Betty Friedan who, in my opinion, stand as the beginning and end to any sort of struggle by women to achieve equality) is no longer an overt concern in my world. Maybe because of where I live, how I have been raised, and the endless opportunities that have been thrown my way.
I firmly believe that any real sort of "struggle" on the part of women, in the quest for equality, is over.
Those speaking of women obssessed with "beating" men in the workplace have sadly skewed perceptions, in my opinion. How about the idea of personal achievement? Going for what you want to better your life? Where does having a vs. having a fit into that?
Maybe the fact that I'm 23 allows me to be ignorant to some kind of sorry plight in my gender, because I don't see it. |
Your lack of experience in the real world is definately the source of your ignorance. The glass ceilings still exist... not as a hard fast rule but more of an unrecognized bias. Salaries for women doing the same work remain lower (a female colleague of mine presently earns significantly less then I do... of course that could because I'm a better negotiatior). There are opportunities that are not openly available, that are only available to those with the proper connections, more often then not those connections are male-male. The sexism is no longer systematic, but it still exists. |
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| Halcyon+On+On |
If it's an issue of overcompensation, men are just as guilty. I think that's her entire point - that generally speaking, both sexes/genders exhibit these traits often enough that an innate disparage between the two is rather moot.
What is rather bothersome is when women overcompensate for the very sake of feminism, itself - as though their personal achievements are truly a testament to their gender as a whole. But then again, men don't need a particular ideological cause to crusade for, because we just know we're pretty much better from the get-go.  |
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| The17sss |
| quote: | Originally posted by Halcyon+On+On
If it's an issue of overcompensation, men are just as guilty. I think that's her entire point - that generally speaking, both sexes/genders exhibit these traits often enough that an innate disparage between the two is rather moot.
What is rather bothersome is when women overcompensate for the very sake of feminism, itself - as though their personal achievements are truly a testament to their gender as a whole. But then again, men don't need a particular ideological cause to crusade for, because we just know we're pretty much better from the get-go. |
I know dude... I said this yesterday:
| quote: | Originally posted by The17sss
My argument about women in no way suggests that the same doesn't apply to men. In this discussion, I am just focusing on women because we are in a discussion about "feminism". I could just as easily turn the subject in the other direction too. |
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| Halcyon+On+On |
| Ridiculous!@ Your perception is clearly skewed by experience. It's the worst kind of ignorance that exists! |
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| Ania_xox |
Would there be a problem in both of you seeing my viewpoints as a breath of fresh air?
The two of you sound like the male version of angry lesbians - only with vaginas on the mind instead of your own cocks.
Yes, I can only suggest that these issues of sexism that are allegedly so deeply rooted in our society are on their way out, based on my life and what I have seen and read and experienced.
Maybe you're right in assuming that my opinions on this matter come from my lack of exposure to "how the world really works" (excuse me while I barf from being condescended to) but I have studied at 4 different Universities in 3 different countries, held a vast ing variety of jobs (several of which were "male-dominated"), and I've recently been catapulted into a small sector of the business world.
My conclusions, as earlier stated, still stand.
Perhaps open your minds to the idea that these issues of sexism are on their way out.
Lest you ing perpetuate them with your pig-headed attitudes. |
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